The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

[Danroush]

Just put "Jeremy Corbyn IRA" into Google and there's every paper that you can think of.

Daily Express.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... raises-IRA

And if you want a left wing one The Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ira-stance

And The Mirror

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/po ... yn-6208734

Oh my, a picture of Corbyn in the same room as someone else, talking to him, how horrifying. Also you were claiming he called them "heroes," all of your articles just show him calling all deaths due to the conflict a bad thing, and refusing to pretend either side acted perfectly. Seems pretty reasonable to avoid knee-jerk comments and reactions to me.

[Gandalf the Red]

But at the time Gerry Adams was a member of a banned terrorist organisation that was blowing people up in the street. If he was in the same room as the leader of ISIS today, would that be acceptable?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

But at the time Gerry Adams was a member of a banned terrorist organisation that was blowing people up in the street. If he was in the same room as the leader of ISIS today, would that be acceptable?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

Not really comparable seeing as ISIS don't have a democratic wing. If those photos were taken in the 70's I could see your point, but they were taken in 1984 and after, a time when Adams was leading the Republican movement into politics (albeit admittedly while still on the Provisional army council.) Pretty sure those particular photos were taken in Westminster while Adams was MP for West Belfast.

Say what you will with about either of them but without Corbyn bringing Sinn Féin further into the political sphere at a time they were isolating themselves and the rest of Westminster was trying to have them silenced the Troubles never would have ended when they did. It's also worth noting Whitehall had been communicating with the IRA via army intelligence and MI5 since at least 1972, Corbyn was just the first member of the British establishment to engage them publicly.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here as well, but would anyone photographed standing beside Margaret Thatcher in the 1980's be put through the same witch hunt? After all she was de facto commander-in-chief of an army who were shooting children in the back of the head on the way school, running sectarian murderers as informants and using iron radiators to burn the skin off prisoners' bollocks at this time.

[houston4044]

But at the time Gerry Adams was a member of a banned terrorist organisation that was blowing people up in the street. If he was in the same room as the leader of ISIS today, would that be acceptable?

It's acceptable on the context, if he is in the room to mediate and try to resolve the conflict then yes, that's acceptable as it can lead to a resolution of the problem (while the Irish troubles are far from over it's far from as bad as it used to be). If he was in the same room doing nothing progressive then yes, that is unacceptable.

[Gandalf the Red]

Not really comparable seeing as ISIS don't have a democratic wing. If those photos were taken in the 70's I could see your point, but they were taken in 1984 and after, a time when Adams was leading the Republican movement into politics (albeit admittedly while still on the Provisional army council.) Pretty sure those particular photos were taken in Westminster while Adams was MP for West Belfast.

Say what you will with about either of them but without Corbyn bringing Sinn Féin further into the political sphere at a time they were isolating themselves and the rest of Westminster was trying to have them silenced the Troubles never would have ended when they did. It's also worth noting Whitehall had been communicating with the IRA via army intelligence and MI5 since at least 1972, Corbyn was just the first member of the British establishment to engage them publicly.

That photo was taken just after the IRA had blown up the Grand Hotel in Brighton, if he's meeting some one for peaceful reasons then I'm a Chinaman. Corbyn part of the establishment? Far from it. The guy won't even sing the National Anthem. He's sat on the backbenches all his political career, voting against virtually every policy that has been put forward by any government, even his own party. He was a revolutionary, bent on the downfall of the establishment.

Democratic? The IRA were/are a mafia style organisation. Everyone knows who was pulling the strings, the so called politicians of Sinn Fein. I know the other side was just as bad. But I don't believe that any of this lot were the "freedom fighters" they are often portrayed.

Soldiers shooting children? Show me the evidence. I think it's one of those exaggerated stories like US Marines eating babies and Germans raping nuns.

I know republicans always seem to think soldiers are there for political reasons. But I guarantee that most of those poor squaddies that served in NI only did so as it was a job.

[Gandalf the Red]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here as well, but would anyone photographed standing beside Margaret Thatcher in the 1980's be put through the same witch hunt? After all she was de facto commander-in-chief of an army who were shooting children in the back of the head on the way school, running sectarian murderers as informants and using iron radiators to burn the skin off prisoners' bollocks at this time.

I've probably got more reason to hate Thatcher than most. Especially for the cover up over Hillsborough and the desolation of industry in the North. But she was a legitimate politician, even though some of her policies and "allies" were a bit dodgy (Pinochet and other dictators, South Africa). So no.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

But at the time Gerry Adams was a member of a banned terrorist organisation that was blowing people up in the street. If he was in the same room as the leader of ISIS today, would that be acceptable?

It's acceptable on the context, if he is in the room to mediate and try to resolve the conflict then yes, that's acceptable as it can lead to a resolution of the problem (while the Irish troubles are far from over it's far from as bad as it used to be). If he was in the same room doing nothing progressive then yes, that is unacceptable.

For all intents and purposes The Troubles are over though. The fleggers have given up their campaign. There hasn't been any serious dissident attacks in about 3 years now. "The Real IRA" have been splintered beyond any real power after Alan Ryan was killed by Dublin gangsters in 2012 and any factions of them that haven't been killed off in internal feuds have been imprisoned. The Contos and ONH in West Belfast seem to have just given up aside from battering a few idiots who try to use their name to intimidate people, and even RAAD in Derry have gone quiet too. Although that's probably because they've completely secured the drug trade there for themselves. The was 2 murders of former Provos earlier this year but those were both drug-related too.

So really now we just have the same sort of organised crime as anywhere else in the world, and have it a lot lighter than most places.

[Gandalf the Red]

But at the time Gerry Adams was a member of a banned terrorist organisation that was blowing people up in the street. If he was in the same room as the leader of ISIS today, would that be acceptable?

It's acceptable on the context, if he is in the room to mediate and try to resolve the conflict then yes, that's acceptable as it can lead to a resolution of the problem (while the Irish troubles are far from over it's far from as bad as it used to be). If he was in the same room doing nothing progressive then yes, that is unacceptable.

I think to all intents and purposes it is. Although I do think that it'll take a few generations for there to be proper peace. When everyone who has first hand memories of what went on are well gone.

We wouldn't have gone on a holiday to Northern Ireland a few years ago. Now you wouldn't even bat an eyelid.

[Gandalf the Red]

Used the same phrase.

[Andy (Dr Sin)]

I'm with Gandalf. Gerry Adams and his "organisation" blew up innocent kids. If you can't condem that, what can you condem? Corbyn is a despicable human being. Dangerous man

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

That photo was taken just after the IRA had blown up the Grand Hotel in Brighton, if he's meeting some one for peaceful reasons then I'm a Chinaman. Corbyn part of the establishment? Far from it. The guy won't even sing the National Anthem. He's sat on the backbenches all his political career, voting against virtually every policy that has been put forward by any government, even his own party. He was a revolutionary, bent on the downfall of the establishment.

Yeah, establishment was a bad word to use. Even still, Corbyn was a big part in getting the British government to enter into (public) talks with Sinn Féin which is what brought about the peace process. At that time in 1984 Thatcher would have been meeting the Dublin government to set up the Anglo-Irish Agreement (1985), essentially deciding on the future of the north of Ireland without the input of any of the people or parties of the region. Even Unionists were frozen out of talks at that time because of British distrust towards them after the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement in the 70's.

And if Corbyn was as you suspect meeting the SF to bring about the downfall of the British establishment then he was meeting the wrong people to do it seeing as that was never one of the IRA's goals. Politicians were only targets as far as they were also members or advisers of the military i.e. Thatcher as Commander-In-Chief, Airey Neave who as shadow defense secretary proposed even more troop presence on the street etc.

Democratic? The IRA were/are a mafia style organisation.

The internal structure has always been democratic. Volunteers elected a 12 person executive who in turn elected a 7 person Army Council led by the Chief Of Staff. Even the remaining splinter groups use this system as well, though there's probably so few members of the Contos left that you probably get on the executive just by joining.

I'd need to write a whole essay to explain the relationship between the IRA and Sinn Féin but it's a massive oversimplification to say SF pulled the strings in the IRA or vice versa. Sinn Féin policy is directed by popular vote at the annual Ard Fheis (where active IRA volunteers attending get a vote but just the same as any other SF party member) and the Army Council elected separately only by volunteers controlled day to day IRA activities. It's always been assumed there was overlap but before Adams became SF president in 1982/83 and the party starting actually standing in elections most SF members were either women or retired/inactive due to age IRA volunteers, and even MI5 who had him under constant surveillance don't believe Adams was ever SF president and on the Army Council at the same time.

Also if you don't think Sinn Féin are a legitimate political entity take it up with Merlyn Rees. He's the one who made the party legal again in 1975 when he was Secretary Of State and spoke to the IRA via them during the ceasefire that year.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

Soldiers shooting children? Show me the evidence. I think it's one of those exaggerated stories like US Marines eating babies and Germans raping nuns.

Here's a few of the more well known cases of children shot dead by soldiers during The Troubles (by no means exhaustive.)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-ohare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Groves
(search "Brian Stewart")

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/07/northernireland.richardnortontaylor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annette_McGavigan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16125077

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/appeal-for-witness-to-fatal-army-shooting-of-francis-rowntree-29973781.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/army-goes-to-war-over-sas-mans-revelations-1244144.html
(search "John Boyle")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springhill_Massacre#The_deceased

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20128699

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-20353502

http://www.crossexaminer.co.uk/archives/9505

[Gandalf the Red]

I'll only consider Sinn Féin to be a legitimate political entity when they start doing what normal political parties do and attend parliament, debate and vote. If they don't start doing basic things like that then they'll forever be seen as outsiders.

Oh they're Republicans, so what, quite a few of the Labour Party are as well.

[Gandalf the Red]

So one 12 year old shot when passing a checkpoint. Possible IRA sniper fire.

A 14 year old was killed in crossfire with the IRA.

Some rioters were hit by rubber bullets whilst rioting.

It's sad it happened. But when murderers are being allowed free to go about their business as the so called "on the runs" are. Then NO British soldier should be held responsible for any alleged crime. It can't be one rule for one and another rule for the other.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

So one 12 year old shot when passing a checkpoint. Possible IRA sniper fire.

A 14 year old was killed in crossfire with the IRA.

Some rioters were hit by rubber bullets whilst rioting.

It's sad it happened. But when murderers are being allowed free to go about their business as the so called "on the runs" are. Then NO British soldier should be held responsible for any alleged crime. It can't be one rule for one and another rule for the other.

Yep, I actually agree with you on that. It was an act of complete selfishness from the IRA by putting keeping their members out of jail (where under the GFA they would've mostly served quarter time any way) and making it near politically impossible for the community they were supposed to protect to ever get justice for Bloody Sunday etc.