So much for Iced Earth...

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metaldinosaur
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby metaldinosaur » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:26 am

bloodofthekings wrote:
metaldinosaur wrote:We still don't know John's motivation, and that is important. Very important. To react to the possibility that someone has undertaken a social and political transgression, by say: feeling disgust at your prior-self watching their band, or wishing the accused livelihood to be taken away, creates poor discord, which leads to things like, say Trump. Its not a good thing for stability.


If he'd have stayed outside, across the street and just engaged in the protest then you could make that argument. But as soon as he entered that building and started charging through those corridors then it's no longer just a 'possibility' or a question of motivation.
His actions, alongside the others he was with, were an act of domestic terrorism and were carried out solely to try and prevent the confirmation of a democratically elected president. That in itself is an act of fascism. I really don't see how it can be viewed any other way



His actions are clear. His motivation is not. Not yet.
Fascism is a very specific term that is used incorrectly on a regular basis, you appear to be using it incorrectly here too. Unless he has had a very big change of heart (possible, but unlikely) his motivation was not fascist. Before these events, his beliefs apeard to run entirely against the large government apparatus needed for fascism. While I do not agree with his libertarian view point, it does the situation no good to mark him out as something he does not appear to be.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby bloodfiend » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:14 pm

Gandalf the Red wrote:
See you in court.

Hope you've got a good lawyer.


HAHAHA HAHAHA.

Wow this thread got sexy overnight, not only did Gandalf raise his distorted head, but now the board is suing each other!

Personally I don't think Gandalf is a fascist, now it's all over the news and popular he wouldn't be interested in it, he would have only been a fascist in the 80s before it was cool and before any of us knew about it.

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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby bloodfiend » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:31 pm

Gandalf the Red wrote:
You all do know that posting allegations on social media is slander which is a criminal offence? I will be talking to my brief in the morning.


But but but.... that would mean you have to reveal your name and who are you!!

That's the problem with being a keyboard warrior, you'll never be able to follow through on threats like this cos it would involve you not hiding behind your computer.

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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby metaldinosaur » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:29 pm

Also, as far as I'm aware, a loss if earnings is needed for slander to be viable. Liable is different, but does not appear to be how forums are treated in court.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby bloodfiend » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:45 pm

metaldinosaur wrote:Also, as far as I'm aware, a loss if earnings is needed for slander to be viable. Liable is different, but does not appear to be how forums are treated in court.


Plus Black Wizard can just say he was referring to Gandalf from Lord Of The Rings, no evidence that he was talking about this Gandalf.

I assume the tedious old mong is just using scare tactics here, he'll need to throw a lot of money at lawyer if he wants them to lower themselves to the level of taking up cases about people calling each other names on a message board behind user names.

Oops I called Gandalf a "tedious old mong", no doubt I'll now have a legal case on my hands and the police will be battering down my door in the next 10 minutes and tomorrow I'll be sentenced to the electric chair.

Oh well, it's been nice knowing you all....

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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby Skippy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:21 pm

metaldinosaur wrote:
bloodofthekings wrote:
metaldinosaur wrote:We still don't know John's motivation, and that is important. Very important. To react to the possibility that someone has undertaken a social and political transgression, by say: feeling disgust at your prior-self watching their band, or wishing the accused livelihood to be taken away, creates poor discord, which leads to things like, say Trump. Its not a good thing for stability.


If he'd have stayed outside, across the street and just engaged in the protest then you could make that argument. But as soon as he entered that building and started charging through those corridors then it's no longer just a 'possibility' or a question of motivation.
His actions, alongside the others he was with, were an act of domestic terrorism and were carried out solely to try and prevent the confirmation of a democratically elected president. That in itself is an act of fascism. I really don't see how it can be viewed any other way



His actions are clear. His motivation is not. Not yet.
Fascism is a very specific term that is used incorrectly on a regular basis, you appear to be using it incorrectly here too. Unless he has had a very big change of heart (possible, but unlikely) his motivation was not fascist. Before these events, his beliefs apeard to run entirely against the large government apparatus needed for fascism. While I do not agree with his libertarian view point, it does the situation no good to mark him out as something he does not appear to be.

He himself may not be a fascist (and from his music and hearing him speak, I agree that he holds liberarian, anti-big goverment views), but in taking part in a coup aimed at installing Trump as President (the only motivation I can find), he is directly supporting fascism. There is no way right now Trump can become President of America while keeping the democratic process. Therefore, the term "fascist" is entirely correct.

None of this will stop me listening to Iced Earth or Demons and Wizards of course, but it is a massive shame. Mostly because I was hoping to see both bands at some point. Oh well.

Am I the only one that saw Gandalf's comments not as a "keyboard warrior" but jokey and tongue-in-cheek?
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby bloodfiend » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:46 pm

Skippy wrote:
Am I the only one that saw Gandalf's comments not as a "keyboard warrior" but jokey and tongue-in-cheek?


Yes, I don't think that grumpy old fuck has ever been "jokey".

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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby metaldinosaur » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:26 pm

Unless he had a very last minute change of heart, John voted for the libertarian candidate, not trump.

I assume he did the crime for his idea of freedom. But that is just an assumption, but plausible. Presuming he did it to install Trump as a fascist despot is a big leap, beyond reason even.

As a side point: Trumps rhetoric has never been fascist. Fascism is a philosophy of duel economics, 'might is right' and group collective competition (having combat as a acceptable and even natural conclusion). Fascist ideology really fell away completly after Franco died and Spain became a democracy. Even then Spain never acted as a true fascist state, the last country to do that was Italy, and that went quite poorly for them. Where are the fascists here, I've never even even seen a fascist post something on line. There are nazi types out there, probably some in that DC gang too, but trump isn't one of them.

Trumps biggest problem, is that he's a dick.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby Skippy » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:51 am

What were the goals of the "protest" then, if not to overturn the results of the election, and thus install Trump as what would be an unelected leader? Yeah, he and the rest of them probably did do it for their idea of freedom, but that idea of freedom seems incredibly nebulous, and seems to amount to little more than "we like this guy". It would help if they had a proper manifesto behind the movement, but unless I've missed it they don't.

What exactly do you think facist rhetoric is? Do you think Hitler, Mussolini or Franco talked about how they wanted all the power for themselves all the time? No, it was always "these people are taking your liberty (insert country here) first, lets get them!" Trump has constantly floated all democratic rules he wants to. He constantly talks about Nationalist exceptionalism, has made numerous attempts to suppress free press (the Twitter thing, for example) and give himself more powers (limiting the powers of individual states, for example). He came to power blaming immigrants for all the problems of the country, and did his upmost to limit the rights of anyone he considered not American enough - another hallmark of fascist (well, all) dictatorships. Finally, and most importantly, he regularly talked about shutting down his main political rivals, the Democrats, while also talking about how he's going to run for a third term. Hell, even to use your metric, he has constantly talked about how he thinks his fans should use violence against their politcal opponents. To think Trump's rhetoric is anything other than fascism dressed up seems a little naive.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby metaldinosaur » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:22 am

Skippy wrote:What were the goals of the "protest" then, if not to overturn the results of the election, and thus install Trump as what would be an unelected leader? Yeah, he and the rest of them probably did do it for their idea of freedom, but that idea of freedom seems incredibly nebulous, and seems to amount to little more than "we like this guy". It would help if they had a proper manifesto behind the movement, but unless I've missed it they don't.

What exactly do you think facist rhetoric is? Do you think Hitler, Mussolini or Franco talked about how they wanted all the power for themselves all the time? No, it was always "these people are taking your liberty (insert country here) first, lets get them!" Trump has constantly floated all democratic rules he wants to. He constantly talks about Nationalist exceptionalism, has made numerous attempts to suppress free press (the Twitter thing, for example) and give himself more powers (limiting the powers of individual states, for example). He came to power blaming immigrants for all the problems of the country, and did his upmost to limit the rights of anyone he considered not American enough - another hallmark of fascist (well, all) dictatorships. Finally, and most importantly, he regularly talked about shutting down his main political rivals, the Democrats, while also talking about how he's going to run for a third term. Hell, even to use your metric, he has constantly talked about how he thinks his fans should use violence against their politcal opponents. To think Trump's rhetoric is anything other than fascism dressed up seems a little naive.


Installing unelected leaders has been done in the name of democracy, aristocracy, communism, and other more niche ideas. It is not intrinsically facist. It is usually illegal though, as it is here, but not always facist. If these people want Trump back, they are not getting a facist leader if they succeed.

Just a few points:
Keynesian economics Is facist -Trump does not go for that. Not at all. He’s protectionist free market all the way.
Expansion through war is facist - Trump has started less international conflict than any president in my lifetime.
Anti-democratic policies are facist - I think Trump is looking to run in his third democratic election in 2024. He wants to win the game, not get rid of it. That is clear.


All of Trumps actions/behaviours that you list above are regarded as populist. They are often appallingly crass, inflammatory and destabilising, but not facist. Not even close. He is held very much in place by the American system and his main motivation appears to be a narcissistic ego, not a codified political ideology. Characterising him and his supporters as facist is just incorrect. And worse, it vilifies people who feel ignored and forgotten - people in that position could turn to something worse if they feel a social contact has been broken. While they operate within the law, We should be as kind as possible towards them, listen as much as we can, while keeping a moderate perspective clear, accessible and strong. Calling people facist, when they have no such ideology is not conducive to such a dialogue.

For clarity: Both Hitler and Mussolini did, once they had power, talk at length about gaining more power; and both picked apart the democratic system with a vast swath of support from the people. You have to remember, though ‘The third way’ wasn’t politically anathematised as it is today. People where very suspicious of capitalism and democracy, especially in countries who where very new to it. To paraphrase Orwell: capitalism offered wealth and modernisation, communism offered equality and a full belly, and Hitler offered blood, glory and death... we know what they chose. He didn’t hide it. None of them did. Enough people wanted it, and so it happened. It’s a difficult thing to swallow for those countries, but it is true.

The American people, including the vast, vast, vast, majority of trumps supporter do not want a facist despot, if they did, they would have it. It’s how democracy works.

Trump disregard for truth is my least favourite thing about him, it leads to unease, distrust and misunderstanding - including some of this thread. And as an an Englishman, I find it hard to understand the American mentality that brought Trump to power. But I can try, it would be beneficial if more people undertook this same effort. If they did, maybe even Twitter would be a nicer place to be.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby Skippy » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:49 pm

metaldinosaur wrote:

Just a few points:
Keynesian economics Is facist -Trump does not go for that. Not at all. He’s protectionist free market all the way.
Expansion through war is facist - Trump has started less international conflict than any president in my lifetime.
Anti-democratic policies are facist - I think Trump is looking to run in his third democratic election in 2024. He wants to win the game, not get rid of it. That is clear.

Keynesian Economics is not fascist. Put simply, its the idea that the market should be stimulated by the government in times of recession - its basically the opposite of Austerity. Many governments, inlcluding Britain followed it's ideas back in the day - its not fascist, although I believe Keynes himself was.
Expansion is not necessarily fascist either, although most fascist leaders did look to go to war on a regular basis. They believe that they should rule, usually over the most people but not necessarily.
Trump definitely has taken anti-democratic actions. He stated he wants to run in 2024 before he lost the election - he wanted it to be his third term, which is against the constitution.

metaldinosaur wrote:
All of Trumps actions/behaviours that you list above are regarded as populist. They are often appallingly crass, inflammatory and destabilising, but not facist. Not even close. He is held very much in place by the American system and his main motivation appears to be a narcissistic ego, not a codified political ideology. Characterising him and his supporters as facist is just incorrect. And worse, it vilifies people who feel ignored and forgotten - people in that position could turn to something worse if they feel a social contact has been broken. While they operate within the law, We should be as kind as possible towards them, listen as much as we can, while keeping a moderate perspective clear, accessible and strong. Calling people facist, when they have no such ideology is not conducive to such a dialogue.

For clarity: Both Hitler and Mussolini did, once they had power, talk at length about gaining more power; and both picked apart the democratic system with a vast swath of support from the people. You have to remember, though ‘The third way’ wasn’t politically anathematised as it is today. People where very suspicious of capitalism and democracy, especially in countries who where very new to it. To paraphrase Orwell: capitalism offered wealth and modernisation, communism offered equality and a full belly, and Hitler offered blood, glory and death... we know what they chose. He didn’t hide it. None of them did. Enough people wanted it, and so it happened. It’s a difficult thing to swallow for those countries, but it is true.

I think you have it the wrong way around. Yes, Trump is a populist leader - so was Corbyn - but everything I stated was aimed at showing him to be fascist. Particularly in the past year, he has shown a complete disregard for democracy - during the riots last year, he stripped power from the state governors and gave it to himself. He tried to silence free press, passing legislation to limit in particular Twitter's rights to speak out against him and flooding the press with false information. Again, he regularly spoke about running for a third term, I believe even suggesting he should be president for life. He's not a particularly effective fascist, and America has many systems in place to stop anyone from becoming a dictator, but in my view that is the way he has moved.

For me personally he meets the very definition of fascism, but if you disagree then I can't convince you. That's fine, I suppose. Nor do I think he's intentially fascist - he's a selfish, greedy man who in his quest for power has leant that way.

metaldinosaur wrote:
The American people, including the vast, vast, vast, majority of trumps supporter do not want a facist despot, if they did, they would have it. It’s how democracy works.

Trump disregard for truth is my least favourite thing about him, it leads to unease, distrust and misunderstanding - including some of this thread. And as an an Englishman, I find it hard to understand the American mentality that brought Trump to power. But I can try, it would be beneficial if more people undertook this same effort. If they did, maybe even Twitter would be a nicer place to be.

I agree with this - most people don't want a fascist (they did not know they were voting for one last time, and actively did not vote for one this time). Mostly it was a vote against the establishment (which Trump was always really a part of, but that's not what people saw). Yeah, people should try to understand each other's points of view - which is hard to do with the constant name calling on both sides. I do feel that most of America needs to learn their lesson from history - whether fascist or not, the ground that brought Trump to power is dangerous and under Biden I think is unlikely to be fixed.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby metaldinosaur » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:13 pm

Skippy wrote:
metaldinosaur wrote:

Just a few points:
Keynesian economics Is facist -Trump does not go for that. Not at all. He’s protectionist free market all the way.
Expansion through war is facist - Trump has started less international conflict than any president in my lifetime.
Anti-democratic policies are facist - I think Trump is looking to run in his third democratic election in 2024. He wants to win the game, not get rid of it. That is clear.

Keynesian Economics is not fascist. Put simply, its the idea that the market should be stimulated by the government in times of recession - its basically the opposite of Austerity. Many governments, inlcluding Britain followed it's ideas back in the day - its not fascist, although I believe Keynes himself was.
Expansion is not necessarily fascist either, although most fascist leaders did look to go to war on a regular basis. They believe that they should rule, usually over the most people but not necessarily.
Trump definitely has taken anti-democratic actions. He stated he wants to run in 2024 before he lost the election - he wanted it to be his third term, which is against the constitution.

metaldinosaur wrote:
All of Trumps actions/behaviours that you list above are regarded as populist. They are often appallingly crass, inflammatory and destabilising, but not facist. Not even close. He is held very much in place by the American system and his main motivation appears to be a narcissistic ego, not a codified political ideology. Characterising him and his supporters as facist is just incorrect. And worse, it vilifies people who feel ignored and forgotten - people in that position could turn to something worse if they feel a social contact has been broken. While they operate within the law, We should be as kind as possible towards them, listen as much as we can, while keeping a moderate perspective clear, accessible and strong. Calling people facist, when they have no such ideology is not conducive to such a dialogue.

For clarity: Both Hitler and Mussolini did, once they had power, talk at length about gaining more power; and both picked apart the democratic system with a vast swath of support from the people. You have to remember, though ‘The third way’ wasn’t politically anathematised as it is today. People where very suspicious of capitalism and democracy, especially in countries who where very new to it. To paraphrase Orwell: capitalism offered wealth and modernisation, communism offered equality and a full belly, and Hitler offered blood, glory and death... we know what they chose. He didn’t hide it. None of them did. Enough people wanted it, and so it happened. It’s a difficult thing to swallow for those countries, but it is true.

I think you have it the wrong way around. Yes, Trump is a populist leader - so was Corbyn - but everything I stated was aimed at showing him to be fascist. Particularly in the past year, he has shown a complete disregard for democracy - during the riots last year, he stripped power from the state governors and gave it to himself. He tried to silence free press, passing legislation to limit in particular Twitter's rights to speak out against him and flooding the press with false information. Again, he regularly spoke about running for a third term, I believe even suggesting he should be president for life. He's not a particularly effective fascist, and America has many systems in place to stop anyone from becoming a dictator, but in my view that is the way he has moved.

For me personally he meets the very definition of fascism, but if you disagree then I can't convince you. That's fine, I suppose. Nor do I think he's intentially fascist - he's a selfish, greedy man who in his quest for power has leant that way.

metaldinosaur wrote:
The American people, including the vast, vast, vast, majority of trumps supporter do not want a facist despot, if they did, they would have it. It’s how democracy works.

Trump disregard for truth is my least favourite thing about him, it leads to unease, distrust and misunderstanding - including some of this thread. And as an an Englishman, I find it hard to understand the American mentality that brought Trump to power. But I can try, it would be beneficial if more people undertook this same effort. If they did, maybe even Twitter would be a nicer place to be.

I agree with this - most people don't want a fascist (they did not know they were voting for one last time, and actively did not vote for one this time). Mostly it was a vote against the establishment (which Trump was always really a part of, but that's not what people saw). Yeah, people should try to understand each other's points of view - which is hard to do with the constant name calling on both sides. I do feel that most of America needs to learn their lesson from history - whether fascist or not, the ground that brought Trump to power is dangerous and under Biden I think is unlikely to be fixed.




I think our disagreement stems from or definition of fascism. But I'm afraid, as smart as you clearly are, your wrong here. I am using the pre-war Italian model, based on the roman ideal and rightly do. This is a specific ideology, including nietzsche philosophy, futurist ideas/art, and neo-imperialist expansion, etc. Its the only real meaning of the term and the origin of why its so social unacceptable to believe in such ideas.

Other doctrines shared much commonality with it, but not all totalitarianism is the same.

It is my understanding that Keynesian Economics is a government interventionist economic model. Britain post-war Labour governments indeed used it for modulating recession. But its approach is vital for the marshal expansionist doctrine of fascism to work. A war economy is Keynesian. A war economy is fascist. Trump and his supporters are not proponents of this.

A fascist state based on the roman model, is expansionist. Marshal expansion is vital for fascist state to fulfill this central tenant. If it is not expanding it is failing in one of its central doctrines, as did Spain. Again, this isn't what Trump wants, nor do his supporters.

Trump is a populist because is rhetoric and policy appeals to vast numbers outside of the political establishment (just like Corbyn did). We both seem to feel that Trumps main aim is power, and that he is willing to push the boundaries of the law and social decency to get it. However, supporting populism is very different from supporting fascism. I have an issue with people referring to Trumps supporters as facist (including John - on topic hurrah). Facist ideas are proven to be destructive to the extent that supporters of such ideas are regarded as social pariahs. To call trump supporters facist, is unfair untrue, and destructive.

People are afraid trump will become totalitarian. I don't think he will/can, and he has never actually broken the law. Though he woul probably brake the law if he could get away with it, he won't because, unlike the real facist despots, he will lose the vast majority of his supporters. Therfore, calling them facist is wrong and destructive to the ongoing discord, which needs de-escalating asap.

So many people fling around absolutist (and incorrect) language around issues like this without really considering how it impacts the situation. Though some of those people in DC are radical beyond the acceptable social framework, I do not think most of the people that where there are irredeemable; and from what I know of him up to this point, that includes John. There should be a way back for them, and him, after the law has run its course. I feel closing the door to him, and people like him is, at this point, reactionary, absolutist, antisocial, and bad for society.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby Aaaarrrrgggghhhh » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:25 pm

The wider political motivations, still don't subtract from the fact that he's been a very naughty boy.

Loved Iced Earth and Demons & Wizards, but Jon has bollocksed his entire world. There are some lines you don't cross and certainly when your livelihood is dependent upon sales to a select fan base.

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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby metaldinosaur » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:44 pm

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh wrote:The wider political motivations, still don't subtract from the fact that he's been a very naughty boy.

Loved Iced Earth and Demons & Wizards, but Jon has bollocksed his entire world. There are some lines you don't cross and certainly when your livelihood is dependent upon sales to a select fan base.


Agreed.

But he has to be allowed to explain, and if needed a chance to turn it around.
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Re: So much for Iced Earth...

Postby Skippy » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:23 pm

metaldinosaur wrote:
People are afraid trump will become totalitarian. I don't think he will/can, and he has never actually broken the law. Though he woul probably brake the law if he could get away with it, he won't because, unlike the real facist despots, he will lose the vast majority of his supporters. Therfore, calling them facist is wrong and destructive to the ongoing discord, which needs de-escalating asap.

I think you are right in that we are using different definitions - I am more going by what Fascism became, rather than its orginal incarnation - Fascism as a dirty word, rather than when it was celebrated.

I think you are very wrong on this point though. The legality of a lot of Trump's actions is hotly debated, and whether or not he's protected from repercusions by the GOP owning the Senate and Congress and the Supreme Court. Hence the impeachment.

I think you are right though, he needs to explain before he's judged too harshly. Although for some fans it seems a bit late for that.
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