The Wrestling Thread

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Bearstock
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Bearstock » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:50 am

Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:Still haven't got round to watching Battleground and RAW yet, about a month behind on TNA and can't get a decent link for the last ROH PPV anywhere. I am about halfway through the first day of this year's PWG Battle Of Los Angeles though and have PWG Ten to watch as well. Currently downloading CZW Down With The Sickness and the Wrestle-1 debut as well.

For anyone who doesn't know Wrestle-1 is Keiji Mutoh's breakaway promotion from All Japan Pro Wrestling with about half of their roster and it has really shaken up the wrestling landscape in Japan and I think internationally too. Compared to the Pro Wrestling NOAH exodus in 2000 technically they're in a better position as they still have lots of great talent Jun Akiyama, Go Shiozaki, Atsushi Aoki and GET WILD! compared to the last schism where they were left with literally 2 guys and only survived because of a 2 year crossover storyline with New Japan and then Keiji Mutoh's defection to rebuild the company. This time though I think it might be the end for All Japan.

I can't see NJPW throwing them a lifeline this time- if they're smart they'll actually try to work more with Wrestle-1 instead. Mutoh has already been meeting with Jeff Jarrett about working with TNA and AAA in Mexico who they are partnered with and is talking about creating a "true" world championship. NJPW have already started modernising and trying to expand internationally by making their PPVs available in the states, so if they could bring that and their partners in Mexico CMLL to the table it could be huge. A link-up of the next 5 biggest promotions in the world after WWE probably still wouldn't be able to compete with Vince financially- from what I've read AJPW was only worth $2 million when Mutoh sold it last year, but if they start doing shows on 2 continents and in 3 languages and get a decent TV deal in America it could make a pretty decent alternative place to go for guys not given a fair chance in WWE.

Plus, Ric Flair has burnt his bridges with WWE but not with Mutoh so he could become the American spokesman for them. Meanwhile I reckon what is left of AJPW will have to downscale and probably start working very closely with Pro Wrestling NOAH to keep the very traditional style of puroresu alive whilst Wrestle-1 and NJPW take it into the future.


Firstly save yourself about a day of your life and don't bother with the last month of TNA nor Battleground.

The thought of a genuine cross promotion World Title would be excellent although would require each promotion to have a strong singles title in their own right.

TNA seems like it's imploding on itself with Mickie James, Hogan and Anderson already leaving and suggestions that Styles and Sting may not re sign long term coupled with their own admission that taking the show on the road has severely hampered them financially.

An amalgamation with ROH taking over the Spyke TV deal and using their AAA link up on a more talent sharing, inter promotional basis could do wonders to create a genuine alternative for western audiences.

A North American title with the new interpromotional World title defended between the 3 Western promotions and the 2 from Japan could be fantastic.

Got to think egos would get in the way and prevent it from happening though.

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby CrappyMike » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:12 pm

There is speculation that Dixie will be selling TNA next year, but its also been said that spike will keep them from going out of business because impact is still their highest rated show.

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby The Warlord » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:00 pm

I thought Battleground was a decent PPV myself

Dolph Ziggler vs Damien Sandow on the pre show was a good back and forth match that actually surved a purpose by the end of it ( Sandow hurting his knee and using it as his excuse for not cashing in)

RVD vs ABD was a good extreme rules match

Santino & Great Khali vs Real Americans was crap as expected and just filler only good part was Cesaros Big Swing. But I would rather have seen something like Los Matadores vs Real Americans

R-Truth vs Curtis Axel was boring as hell, apart from his entrance nobody cares about truth. Axel is decent but nowhere near as great as his dad was and it constantly feels like wwe are forcing you to believe he is just as good.

On another point though I was quite surprised and enjoyed the hell in a cell promo with R-Truth wearing a suit and talking about redemption and hell. Could be a good character for him to play a heel cross between Reverend D-Von and Sean O'Haires devils advocate. They could explain that he's found god and turned his back on the rap lifestyle and the hood full of street gangs, guns, drugs ect. And got ordained change the R so it's Reverend Truth. And he could still come out with a microphone as his entrance but morally lecture people instead of that godawful rap. It would be a good way to revamp his look aswell get rid of those horrible graffiti jeans.

Aj Lee vs Brie Bella not the worst divas match if seen but nothing special it was what it was.

Cody Rhodes & Goldust vs The Sheild
Best match of the night with a great build and a reason to actually care about the match, reminded me of the good old days of wrestling. Worth watching the PPV for alone or at least trying to track down on you tube

Kofi Kingston vs Bray Wyatt
I thought this match was pretty boring up until towards the end and was quite sloppy with bray taking a nasty looking bump on his head at one point. Brays spider walk was creepy as hell though.

CM Punk vs Ryback
Not a patch on the intense great matches they had last year when punk was champion and the roles were reversed. Pretty boring I thought for punk match and I think too much damage has been done to Ryback with too many losses this last year to be took serious as an unstoppable monster, lame finish aswell

Randy Orton vs Daniel Bryan
Really enjoyed the match until the finish but I understand why they did it to drag it out till hell in a cell
Instant Wanker.....Just Add Beer!


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Matty_the_Emo_Slayer
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:19 pm

Bearstock wrote:Got to think egos would get in the way and prevent it from happening though.


Yeah, it would be like when the AWA, NWA and World Class got together for Superclash in '85. It'd work once, but not in the long-run. Think of how many guys from those 5 promotions that would be deserving of being in the hypothetical unified world title picture- AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Kurt Angle (unless he returns to WWE), Austin Aries, Bobby Roode, Hernandez (if he was pushed as AAA's top guy), Kazuchika Okada, Shinsuke Nakamura, Masato Tanaka, Hiroshi Tanahashi, Prince Devitt, Keiji Mutoh, Masakatsu Funaki, Blue Demon Jr., El Texano Jr., El Terrible... and that's barely scratching the surface. Together their roster must be nearly 300 guys. Plus, NJPW doesn't have a women's division and Wrestle-1 doesn't have one yet so they'd likely have to include one of the Japanese women's promotions as well.

If conglomerating is the future going forward though I think ROH is better off trying to go it alone, or at least not to dilute their product by merging with a failing TNA. It may get them a better time slot on TV and a proper PPV deal, but if it means being lumped with inferior wrestlers and being dictated to by Spike TV then forget about it. TV people destroy wrestling companies, pure and simple.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Bearstock » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:48 pm

The Warlord wrote:I thought Battleground was a decent PPV myself


The only bits worth watching were the Rhodes/Shield segment which as you said can be Youtubed and the giant swing on Khali which was repeated on Raw.

Just seemed a waste of 3 hours and a prime example of the issues about having so many PPVs.

TV people destroy wrestling companies, pure and simple.


Interesting point and I can see where you are coming from.

The catch 22 though suggests without the added finances and exposure of TV a wrestling company is doomed to hit a glass ceiling beneath it's potential.

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:07 pm

I've been enamoured with him ever since a friend sent me some clips of his early days in NXT, but it's taken me a long time to figure out Bray Wyatt. Now that I have I think he has the potential to be the greatest character in wrestling of all time.

I've been saying for ages now that the traditional categories of heel and face are pretty much dead- Wyatt not only alludes to that in his promos (there is no right and wrong anymore) but proves it- put him against any babyface in the company right now bar Cena and he'll get more of the crowd on his side. There was even people booing Kofi when he went for the Boom Drop last Sunday. I think someone in here said in relation to Ambrose having his name chanted despite being such a heel that in this day in age fans are smarter and value great wrestling more than good guy/bad guy cliches and that's why. That kind of counts for Wyatt too as I do think he's a quality wrestler- not showy or flashy, but fundamentally great and very smart. I can see similarities to his dad, but he's much better than that. What's really great about Wyatt is the character.

The reason why Austin, Mankind and CM Punk are the 3 greatest characters in wrestling history is because a) we were never told to chant for them, it developed organically and that's why it never felt forced and b) they tapped into the feelings of the people watching.

Austin clicked with all the blue collar guys who had been fucked over by Reaganomics in the 80's and left behind by the technological advancement of the 90's. Everyone wanted to be Austin because they wanted to live in a world where they didn't have to compromise their values to keep financially stable and could solve problems with old fashioned fighting. Who wouldn't want to give their boss a stunner if they lived in that sort of world?

Mankind connected because he represented triumph over the corporate world by proving that even the least likely could achieve anything (though arguably this is an endorsement of free market capitalism rather than a killing of it), and also because he bucked all it's strictures by being as weird and as outlandish as he wanted to be. That and I think as humans we have a fascination with and a desire to be insane ourselves because it eliminates a certain sense of social responsibility. Ambrose, and to a lesser extent Orton in his heel persona have that element of vicariousness to them as well in a darker form than Austin and Mankind- we don't just want to live free of structure but morality as well.

Whether in his heel persona (particularly the Straight Edge Society) or his babyface one what draws people psychologically most to him is the idea of "the cult of personality" and the community spirit it entails. Rather than the personal tail of overcoming like Daniel Bryan (that allows the establishment to continue claiming it is a meritocracy) has Punk embodies a sort of communal egalitarianism in opposition to it. The perverse aspect of that is that we want to be a part of that so that the weakest among us can cover for our faults that prevent us being as strong as he is. That willingness to give up individual identity for the security of the herd is really prevalent now I think. In America where you have the poverty gap at levels that actually exceed much of the 3rd world and people are worried that the military are actually on the verge of attacking their own citizens and in the UK where the Tories' divide and conquer policies have left us completely disconnected from one another I think it's pretty rational to feel helplessness and to be crying out for a society with a strong figurehead.

Despite all the conflicting parts of these characters (e.g. Ambrose and Orton have their violence legitimated by the establishment that Punk stands against) I think Bray Wyatt is the perfect mix of all 3 types. He comes from the disenfranchised so many people these days can empathise with him, and want to be him because he has been liberated by his insanity caused by the weight of the world, but also we want to follow him because he leads a society that is an alternative to our crumbling in fear and weakness in the enforced individuality we have. We feel for him because he is discarded by the powers above like us, we want to be him because we admire his courage and his freedom from their control, but we want to follow him because we know we are too scared and weak to be like he is.


This storyline involving the corporate administration versus the workforce is the best WWE have done in years, but up til now it has been too safe, just repeating what has gone before (even the family aspect, as awesome as it was, was just following on from Dusty's classic "Hard Times" promo.) People have been talking about getting Punk involved centre stage in this, but I think Wyatt needs to be the one instead. I even think there's the possibility for turning The Real Americans face by joining the Wyatt family. The tea party promos have lost their edge to shock and offend because of the ridiculousness of having Cesaro in the group as well as the increasingly tongue in cheek way Mantel plays the Colter character. Plus, people respect Cesaro and to a lesser extent Swagger too much as wrestlers for them to be serious heels anymore, which is why you hear "We The People" chants so much. The other advantage is they can just concentrate on wrestling while Wyatt does the talking.

In general though, whether its Punk or Wyatt or anyone I think they need to get as much of the mid-card who have potential to involved in this storyline as more than just stand-ins on the stage. It has already worked wonders for Cody Rhodes who at last looks like he's ready to be in the upper echelon- by putting Wyatt and Cesaro in this main event storyline it will be more believable when it comes time to put them in the main event match.

The other reason why I think it would really pay to take the storyline in this direction is because of how I've been seeing some mainstream media attitudes to wrestling changing in the past year. Earlier in the year The Daily Show said that the Real Americans storyline represented a more constructive debate about immigration than the legislature in American is having, and last week Forbes magazine ran a story online praising the Wyatt character. And frankly its no wonder- whether intentional from the writing staff or whether they've just had a series of lucky accidents WWE is slowly starting to make serious TV, even having political and cultural relevance. They would have to get rid of the frivolous stuff like Fandango and the current divas to complete the overhaul, but as it is I think they are starting to challenge the negative attitudes towards the show.

/end rant
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Matty_the_Emo_Slayer
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:20 am

Bearstock wrote:
TV people destroy wrestling companies, pure and simple.


Interesting point and I can see where you are coming from.

The catch 22 though suggests without the added finances and exposure of TV a wrestling company is doomed to hit a glass ceiling beneath it's potential.


Yeah I can see that side of it too. As much as I mull on the business side of wrestling a lot at the end of the day i'm still a fan first and foremost, so I want whatever option gives me the best wrestling to watch- and in this technological age I can watch pretty much anything with very little hassle (except when ROH decide only a few days before one of their biggest PPVs of the year to stream it live for free on a 3rd party site while I don't have adequate internet, and then not have an on demand playback on their site...)

More exposure for ROH would mean more money, but if they don't spend it right they could end up like TNA where TV executives with no wrestling background are the ones running the show and destroying the product in the process. Likewise with NJPW, while expanding internationally would bring some obvious positive changes (like being able to follow the commentary!) I wouldn't want to see certain people not getting pushed because they can't appeal to the American market. Very old school puro wrestlers like Minoru Suzuki, or Yuji Okabayashi and Daisuke Sekimoto from Big Japan would probably be hated in America for being too slow and "boring."


Back to WWE, I can't agree at all on Battlegrounds being a stinker. Certainly not the best PPV of the year, but the last 2 matches were really well worked. Orton is on the best form he's been in years (largely I think because of how Bryan raises people's game) and Punk has done the same for Ryback. Cole said on commentary who thought we'd see Orton use a boston crab- well who thought we'd see Ryback reverse a running knee into a powerbomb attempt, or a GTS into a powerslam?

Of the finishes the one I'm actually mad about is Punk winning with a low-blow- he should've followed it up with a GTS. All these people whining about wanting refunds for not seeing a definitive finish to the main event need to cop the fuck on and see the bigger picture. Reading the dirtsheets now it seems like they've changed their plan for Hell In The Cell because of them, which is a real shame as they seemed to be really on the ball by dragging this out.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Bearstock » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:52 am

The low blow finish to the Punk match was indeed horrible and far worse than the main event issues. As you say he needed to follow it up with something. If not the GTS then a high kick to the temple or something.

The main event finish was clearly just to get the angle into HIAC. The issue with it being that it gave the PPV no reason for being.

If the PPV wasn't there and the Rhodes/Shield match main evented Raw instead you'd get the same affect, arguably more viewers and 6 weeks worth of solid build for the Bryan/Orton match in the cell.


I can see your view with regards Wyatt. The guy is talented and has supporters in high places going back to praise for his Husky Harris work. The feeling was he needed a better character. He certainly has that now and indeed being frustrated and fucked up through living in a world that he doesn't fit into is especially relatable in the current climate.

Nice list of 3 guys who transcend heel/face boundaries too. One key guy missing though.

The Undertaker.

Brought in as the Million Dollar Mans secret weapon, the character was genuinely disturbing and the way they had him getting counted out and not caring worked wonders.

The Undertaker is a badass. He's been a cult leader (Ministry) got a dark past (Kane history) has supernatural abilities and has even been your straight up harley riding biker.

There's been this allure with him throughout his career where you don't simply like The Undertaker, you become enamoured with the character which over 20 plus years has had many different aspects.

Away from the storylines you hear about him being a locker room leader, not getting too involved in bullshit, he gets it done in the ring and has been involved in some of the most memorable gimmicks the WWF has brought to screen (HIAC, Casket, Buried Alive)

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:17 am

Oh definitely true, he's an all time great for me. One of his greatest achievements in my book though is being the first of a new generation of faster and agile superheavyweights. People talk about Big Van Vader as the most athletic big man in wrestling history, and when you look at the Vadersault I can see why, but Taker is the real turning point for me.

Look at the superheavyweights who came before him like Big John Studd, Haystacks Calhoun, One Man Gang, Big Daddy, Earthquake, Kamala- they were all downright terrible. Even the best ones like Andre, King Kong Bundy and Gorilla Monsoon barely moved around the ring, couldn't work properly and couldn't sell for shit.

Then look at the guys who came after like Kane (okay Glenn Jacobs made his debut not long after Mark Calloway, but his career didn't really start til he became Kane), Mike Awesome, Matt Morgan, Bam Bam Bigelow, Bully Ray... current indie guys like Kevin Steen, The Devastation Corporation, Apollyon... even Mark Henry and Big Show who had to step up their game in their later years. Not all of those guys are directly influenced by Taker of course, but I still say he was the first of that new breed.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Bearstock » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:40 pm

Couldn't agree more.

For a man of his size, walking along the ropes with an almost simplistic approach, the way he can dive over the ropes as well as the general calibre of match he can put on with a smaller guy is outstanding and definitely a benchmark.

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:34 pm

Just done watching that Thy Kingdom Come documentary about HHH. It's pretty decent as far as WWE's retrospectives go, though of course I expected it to be more blushing than the ones they've done on Austin, Punk etc. Really the only 2 negative things said at any point in the film are how horrible his gimmick and footwork were in WCW and how he and Orton were boxed in creatively at Wrestlemania 25 by the title can change on a DQ stip and couldn't live up to the Taker vs Shawn match that went on before.

Chyna was mentioned of course, but his relationship with her and Stephanie's vendetta against her were completely glossed over, as was well as what the Kliq were actually all about. Yes it talks about their closeness but not about how they wanted to keep all the titles within their group and how they targeted anyone who crossed them. I also think his matches with Owen Hart, Mick Foley, Booker T and Chris Jericho could have been elaborated on a bit more fully.

The main reason I wouldn't buy this is simply the match choices. I definitely would've expected his street fight and HiaC match with Cactus Jack to make the cut, as well as his Wrestlemania matches with Jericho and Taker and his unsanctioned match at Summerslam ('02 I think it was) against Shawn. The documentary itself though is still a good watch.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Bearstock » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:30 pm

Match list does seem a bit of an odds and sods one.

I don't have a HHH DVD set though so will likely stick this on the Christmas list.

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby CrappyMike » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:23 pm

Yeah I thought it was good, I am a big fan of the wrestler though, regardless of what people say about the man. Best part was when he was talking about wm25 :lol:

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Bearstock » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:07 pm

Thought Raw was fairly decent this week.

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:50 am

Sequel to The Wrestling Road Diaries coming next year. I'm not much of a fan of Cliff Compton (in ring or what I know of him outside), but I like Luke Gallows and anything Colt Cabana does is gold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKesa6K1nwM
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