The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

[keera_envenomed]

And people are wondering why all the lefties are pretty pissed right now....

Yes, I genuinely am. Because they're all fretting about irrelevancies like the NHS, austerity and the like, rather than the far more important outright attacks on our civil liberties that this bill will enact. I warned about this before the election. But no one on the left seems remotely interested. Indeed, the Lib Dems were the only ones to oppose it last time around and yet people claim they were ineffective while in the coalition.

Dunno where you've been but there is plenty of civil liberties fretting going on at the moment and there was when the idea of withdrawing from the Human Rights Act was first brought up.

[cthulhu]

And people are wondering why all the lefties are pretty pissed right now....

Yes, I genuinely am. Because they're all fretting about irrelevancies like the NHS, austerity and the like, rather than the far more important outright attacks on our civil liberties that this bill will enact. I warned about this before the election. But no one on the left seems remotely interested. Indeed, the Lib Dems were the only ones to oppose it last time around and yet people claim they were ineffective while in the coalition.

The problem with the Tories is just how much there is to be appalled by in their suggestions.

anti human rights act?
that little bill that lets them trawl our internet usage data?
austerity?
NHS being sold out?

and depending on your stance their EU referendum and their plan to remove the fox hunting ban.

Kinda seems like being surrounded by a horde of zombies with nothing but a 6 shooter and no reloads.

[cthulhu]

And that's before we consider George Obsorne going after the vulnerable like some kind of financial vampire.

[Jobdone]

And people are wondering why all the lefties are pretty pissed right now....

Yes, I genuinely am. Because they're all fretting about irrelevancies like the NHS, austerity and the like, rather than the far more important outright attacks on our civil liberties that this bill will enact. I warned about this before the election. But no one on the left seems remotely interested. Indeed, the Lib Dems were the only ones to oppose it last time around and yet people claim they were ineffective while in the coalition.

Dunno where you've been but there is plenty of civil liberties fretting going on at the moment and there was when the idea of withdrawing from the Human Rights Act was first brought up.

Yeah, people have moved on from the potential terror now, into the real terror of human rights being revoked and rewrote how they fancy it, a UK internet based patriot act, and ministers being appointed left and right that seem to holds views in direct conflict of their positions.

[Danroush]

Let's throw some more police brutality in just to round it off shall we (old from 2010 but confirmed, admitted and proved)?

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10152923592036939/

[VirginInvader]

You're right, you should totally be allowed to block roads, disrupt businesses and vandalise communities without consequences. Jeez, I'd join the riot squad myself to have a crack at the students if they weren't so insistent on the hair cut thing

[Danroush]

You're right, you should totally be allowed to block roads, disrupt businesses and vandalise communities without consequences. Jeez, I'd join the riot squad myself to have a crack at the students if they weren't so insistent on the hair cut thing

You basically just said that strikes shouldn't be allowed at all, which is flat out ridiculous. Except for the vandalise communities part, which they weren't doing.

[VirginInvader]

I didn't watch your video. But protesting/striking/whatever isn't very British. We're not living in some third world hell hole. We have education, healthcare jobs and houses. We have things pretty fucking good. Stop whining and get on with it I reckon, you just look like a cunt complaining about living in a society most people would kill to be part of.

[Danroush]

We should avoiding standing up for workers and human rights and other issues simply because it isn't British? I don't think it's worth us continuing this discussion with each other.

I will leave you with 2 individual links in response to how "fucking good" we have it

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2014/10/21/uk-welfare-reform-deaths-updated-list-october-21st-2014/

http://stupidsanctions.tumblr.com/

You get a job interview. It’s at the same time as your job centre appointment, so you reschedule the job centre. You attend your rearranged appointment and then get a letter saying your benefits will be stopped because going to a job interview isn’t a good enough reason to miss an appointment.

[VirginInvader]

I'm not reading your links as I've had enough socialist propaganda through my letterbox the last few weeks. But if you want to pursue a course of rebellious civil disobedience because the Job Centre could be more efficient, who am I to stop you?

[Tet]

You basically just said that strikes shouldn't be allowed at all, which is flat out ridiculous.

Well, no, it's not ridiculous. Striking is blackmail, which is illegal under pretty much any other circumstance. There is no rational reason for making an exception for striking, and I'm far from convinced that doing so benefits society.

[houston4044]

You basically just said that strikes shouldn't be allowed at all, which is flat out ridiculous.

Well, no, it's not ridiculous. Striking is blackmail, which is illegal under pretty much any other circumstance. There is no rational reason for making an exception for striking, and I'm far from convinced that doing so benefits society.

While I agree strikes don't have the same appeal as they used to decades ago and now they seem to be used by over zealous union bosses, I find it uncomfortable people are willing to do away with strikes completely. Considering the economic and political landscape we're entering I think the principle of a strike is going to be needed (though could be easily overused). Why give it away? It will only bite you on the ass in the long run whereas right now it just causes you an inconvenience.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

You basically just said that strikes shouldn't be allowed at all, which is flat out ridiculous.

Well, no, it's not ridiculous. Striking is blackmail, which is illegal under pretty much any other circumstance. There is no rational reason for making an exception for striking, and I'm far from convinced that doing so benefits society.

They are used far too flippantly by union leaders these days, but historically strikes were used either as last resorts after diplomacy between workers and bosses failed or where there was no diplomacy to begin with. If that's blackmail it was only because there was no other option to seek fair wages, working hours etc. and forcing the hand of employers directly was more possible than convincing government intervention in the dispute with mass demonstrations targeting them. And without them things we take for granted like minimum wage (not the national minimum wage in the UK per se, but industry-specific ones that were forerunners to it), health and safety laws in the workplace, employee and working hour contracts etc. wouldn't exist without them. So society does owe a lot to strikes and the labour movement.


From a particularly Irish history perspective as well I also have to look at the 1907 Belfast dock workers strike as the high water mark of non-sectarian workers co-operation. It was all too brief brief and ended 5 years later when the UVF violently forced all catholics and trade unionists out of the shipyards, which reignited sectarianism all across the country again. That kind of cross-community equality-driven movement didn't appear again til 1965 and the NI Civil Rights Association.

[Metalchemyst]

Strikes and protests wouldn't be necessary if we had a stronger democracy with a direct element instead of the crony capitalism we do have. Without going into the philosophy, there is logically no such things as human rights, but all the most important rights should be decided by national referendums.

[someone else]

In the 80s Unions round here walked out at the drop of a hat - removal of a dartboard by management was one reason. There was also a mass walk out at a motor plant in Ellesmere Port because workers weren't allowed back into a building following a fire alarm - they were outside at 11am, and management were blocking them from getting to the canteen to have their approved tea break!

Strikes are becoming less effective as they only really work with support of the public - I was in the fire service at the tail end of their strikes. Lots of the crews thought all they had to do was vote for strike and the Govt would cave in and give them all a 5k pay rise. A lot of the older members who remembered the strikes in the early 80s tried to talk them out if it as they knew that if the Govt didn't back down they would have to walk out and have to live without pay. The FBU ended up being out manouvered and the Govt got their modernisation agenda through with only about a 1k pay rise. The union were also prepared to out on strike when a further agreement wasn't reached - wanting double pay on bank holidays, a day off in lieu and 'standing down' (basically sitting around waiting for the bells to go off). The Govt went 'Go on, strike, see how the public reacts when this is what you're demanding' - the FBU backed down.

What they're protesting about now is changes to the pension scheme that leaves them worse off - its massively subsidised but the contributions from workers are higher, and was a condition of their employment, so any changes and they have the right to strike.