The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Put the world to rights here (off-topic discussion)

How will you vote in the 2019 UK General Election?

Conservative
1
6%
Labour
7
39%
Liberal Democrat
5
28%
SNP
0
No votes
Brexit
1
6%
Green
2
11%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
0
No votes
Won't Vote
2
11%
 
Total votes: 18

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houston4044
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby houston4044 » Mon May 08, 2017 11:26 pm

Gandalf the Red wrote:
houston4044 wrote:
Gandalf the Red wrote: It'll probably also be the end of HS2


good :yes:



Why is that good? The country needs it. In fact it should be getting extended to Scotland.


Jobdone wrote:Because no one expects HS2 to get done anywhere near budget, or within schedule, or generally be anything useful other than allowing Londoners to live outside of London and shift their housing/rent prices to those areas.


Like most things it seems poorly thought out, I live near where it is planned to be built and the one thing that sums it up easily for me is this. There is a church with a cemetery nearby which is surrounded by unused public land (council has for decades yet to draw up plans for what to do with it), rather than plan to go under those fields they decide to build under the cemetery necessitating the relocation of the erm,"contents". During public consultations it was pretty much given a non-answer. So rather than spend the money on the project like equipment etc, they are funding to relocate a cemetary, not filling me up with confidence in the project much.

I'm all up for infrastructure spending but a) the benefits don't match the cost, b) the people it is aimed to benefit don't necessarily need it and c) it's all the eggs in one basket.

It's not nimby-ism (I live far enough away that actually it would be of benefit to me/house price etc) but the thing reeks of "rushed poorly thought out vanity project" than something actually substantial. Invest it 5G or improving telecommunications and the like, getting to Birmingham that few minutes quicker isn't going to be a big boon to business' whereas having a top quality communication tools would be in future.

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Gandalf the Red
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Gandalf the Red » Tue May 09, 2017 12:28 am

It's not really about getting to Birmingham quicker. It's about capacity. The speed bit was to sell it to Chinese investors.

The West Coast Mainline has been well above capacity for years. By building HS2 then you could put all the high speed trains on to that and free up a lot of capacity on the WCML for local services and freight trains.

It's either that or upgrade the WCML which would take years and cost much more.
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Haldamir319
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Haldamir319 » Tue May 09, 2017 7:10 am

We do need more capacity on the rail network, and we certainly need to up the relative speed of services - we lag behind a lot of other first world nations.

That being said, we (UK) are not known for doing things cheaply or promptly, and I think that's what a lot of the concern around the programs relates to.

As for other points raised earlier-

* Immigration -
Provides a net increase in wealth for the country - immigrants spend more than they cost the national purse, as an average. This has been known for a little while and it's quite shocking that the Conservatives (10k cap) and UKIP (one in one out) can't see this. UKIP's policy is particularly stupid - the only *real* way to have one in one out would be to control emigration too.

As for immigrants 'taking our jobs' - this might sound harsh but - there'll be a reason they have been preferred. If they are working for less, then how can they afford to do it and you not? If it's not about cost, then they are simply better at doing the job than you (or willing to do a job you aren't). If they are working for less than minimum wage, then that's a legal issue and not one that should be attributed to immigration. If it's an issue of them 'sending money to others countries', then that is a separate issue that needs to be taken up possibly in the financial sector.

Another thing to consider - we have an aging population, and everyone's pensions are going to need to be paid for one way or another.

* The Banking Crisis / World Recession
The recession was not Labour's fault.
Let that one sink in for a moment.
Could they have done better? Yes. But holding them solely responsible (as the Tories / Daily Fail would have you think) is at best naïve, at worst a flat out lie.
Bankers are more to blame than anyone and, correct me if I'm wrong, but they have existed longer than the previous Labour Government was in power.

* Nationalisation vs. Privatisation
I think there's no hard and fast answer to this. The railway has been, let's face it, utterly sh*t for a long while , under both systems. It's overpriced for the quality of service you receive, and there's problems with infrastructure, capacity and rolling stock. Is that answer to re-nationalise? I'm not sure (though, being a lefty I don't flinch at the idea like some do). I do agree with Gandalf on one point - the mixture of privatising the operators but keeping aspects under public ownership hasn't seemed to have worked and a re-think is needed.

Academies and free schools are rubbish, and grammar schools are antiquated. Schooling should always be 100% nationalised. Saying that, the whole schooling system needs an overhaul/revamp. We need a minimum standard of schooling that's better than it is, as well as doing a better job to maximise on people's potential.

I think I'm going to take a break from this thread and do some work now :P
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red_death
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby red_death » Tue May 09, 2017 11:35 am

Gandalf the Red wrote:Many of the people that worked on the Pendelinos were the APT E and P Train lot. Led by Kit Spackman (AKA Mr Tilt). They all came from the aerospace sector and ended up working at RTC in Derby. They were then headhunted by Fiat.

Even if the TOCs don't own the rolling stock then the leasing companies do. None of those are state owned. They've put billions into rolling stock production. Which is kind of my point. A nationalised BR like Labour are envisioning won't be having billions of pounds investment. It'll probably also be the end of HS2, HS3 and the electrification projects.


Kit left the RTC after the APT-E (he wasn't involved in the P train) - it was his words that said Fiat bought the tech (not the people) some time later but they didn't use it for the Pendolinos as they had already developed their own tilt system.

As for the ROSCO investment - it was hardly for the goodness of their heart (they and the TOCs are taking profit out of the railways)! Who is paying for it? The passengers. BR was not allowed to make those sorts of investments or borrowing (for the same political reason that it is classed as Govt borrowing). My point still stands that you could have had the same end result (or better) ie investment in railways with a nationalised network.

Sometimes Govt borrowing is good and necessary particularly for investment in better infrastructure and if political parties had the balls to admit that then we would all be better served. Things like PFI wouldn't be so necessary/attractive.

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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Tet » Tue May 09, 2017 3:50 pm

Haldamir319 wrote:* Immigration -
Provides a net increase in wealth for the country - immigrants spend more than they cost the national purse, as an average. This has been known for a little while and it's quite shocking that the Conservatives (10k cap) and UKIP (one in one out) can't see this.

There's more to immigration than financial concerns. The cultural impacts are far more important.
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Gandalf the Red
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Gandalf the Red » Tue May 09, 2017 4:09 pm

Haldamir319 wrote:

As for immigrants 'taking our jobs' - this might sound harsh but - there'll be a reason they have been preferred. If they are working for less, then how can they afford to do it and you not? If it's not about cost, then they are simply better at doing the job than you (or willing to do a job you aren't). If they are working for less than minimum wage, then that's a legal issue and not one that should be attributed to immigration. If it's an issue of them 'sending money to others countries', then that is a separate issue that needs to be taken up possibly in the financial sector.


Because they live twenty to a house in slum conditions sharing the bills. Sometimes in sheds or caravans. They undercut the locals by working for much less than the average wages. But make enough to send back home as they are making more than the amount they would make in their own country. They also work more hours that they are legally allowed.

How did we manage before they all came over? Pretty well actually. I can't remember us running out of food in the 1980s. It was the opposite with food mountains due to over production. Plenty of cheap labour available already if you pay them properly. I remember loads of people from around here going down to Kent and East Anglia to work for a few months fruit and vegetable picking. Nobody does that now as East Europeans are cheaper.

Blame the farmers as well. If they weren't employing foreigners illegally then there would be more jobs.
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Gandalf the Red
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Gandalf the Red » Wed May 10, 2017 3:42 pm

Oh dear. :lol:

Do your research before opening your mouth.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/a ... y-10391882
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Noodle » Wed May 10, 2017 4:11 pm

One thing I've noticed about my Facebook feed is that it sounds like a loud echo chamber from the left. I'm struggling to find any voice from Tory supporters beyond finding the occasional comment in some Another Angry Voice-esque link threads.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of the company I keep, but I find it quite interesting how the left leaning folks are far more vocal than those who lean towards the right.
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby ScrumpiesVeteran » Wed May 10, 2017 4:54 pm

Noodle wrote:One thing I've noticed about my Facebook feed is that it sounds like a loud echo chamber from the left. I'm struggling to find any voice from Tory supporters beyond finding the occasional comment in some Another Angry Voice-esque link threads.

This isn't necessarily a criticism of the company I keep, but I find it quite interesting how the left leaning folks are far more vocal than those who lean towards the right.


It has always historically been the case, particularly North of the Home Counties. I think that is how the previous General Election was so badly forecast in the Polls. I find that people who vote Labour generally shout from the rooftops (as with the o/h's FB friends) but those who vote Conservative are generally more "conservative" with their public opinions on politics; and are also afraid of the knee jerk abuse that is dished out so easily by those of a left minded nature.
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Jobdone » Wed May 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Ai, the "shy tory" thing is hardly surprising when everyones asserting that if you vote conservative you're a poor hating, fox murdering bastard who probably loves hitler.
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Gandalf the Red » Wed May 10, 2017 6:39 pm

I don't do Facebook so I don't really get to hear those views much.

But I have heard people in pubs with the view of "If you don't agree with me then you're just a Tory fascist". Or the "I voted for UKIP, how come we still have black people here?". I try to ignore those types as you can't have a reasoned discussion with them.

Most people I know are of the age that they've seen it all before so they don't really comment.
“He likes having the ball, playing football, passes. It’s like an orchestra. But it’s a silent song. But I like heavy metal more. I always want it loud.” - Jürgen Klopp

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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Kanwulf » Wed May 10, 2017 6:44 pm

These descriptions of people from the left remind me of Simon Hall on facebook :lol:
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Gandalf the Red » Thu May 11, 2017 12:29 pm

Hitler was anti hunting and liked the poor.
“He likes having the ball, playing football, passes. It’s like an orchestra. But it’s a silent song. But I like heavy metal more. I always want it loud.” - Jürgen Klopp

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Jobdone
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Jobdone » Thu May 11, 2017 5:06 pm

i0th wrote:
Jobdone wrote:Ai, the "shy tory" thing is hardly surprising when everyones asserting that if you vote conservative you're a poor hating, fox murdering bastard who probably loves hitler.


But the question then follows, if you don't hate the poor or want to murder foxes, why would you vote for a party that does?


Because you don't trust Labour to do a better job, because you think Conservatives can balance the budget, because you like some of the other policies they've implemented, because you agree with brexit and think they're more prepared to handle that, because you don't agree with brexit but think they're more prepared to handle that, etc etc etc.

And whilst at the end of the day you should think about other people, you should think about the country as a whole, sometimes you're gotta think "Are they going to directly make my life better".

And people going "LOL GUESS UR A NAZI DEN" isn't going to convince people. Labour could improve your life as well, but you'll never know because there's no arguments being made just pointless shit throwing.

Also you may really like tables

https://www.facebook.com/thedeepleft/vi ... 190248888/
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Jobdone
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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Postby Jobdone » Thu May 11, 2017 5:48 pm

i0th wrote:Being that the Tories have added more national debt in the last 7 years then all Labour governments put together, all whilst under the banner of austerity, makes the idea that they can "balance the books" utterly bizarre. They've had 7 years in charge and completely failed to bring government borrowing and spending under control.


Which is exactly my point.

That is a good counter argument.

"Old people shouldn't be allowed to vote" isn't.
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