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Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:51 am
by bloodofthekings
Cassius wrote:
metaldinosaur wrote:It's not an enviable choice this election, but I'm willing to take a risk on Labours radical plans. It is a very big risk, however, and people should have their eyes open to that fact.


I dont think its all that radical in the grand scheme of things really.

Its a big change for the UK for sure and so there is risk in transitioning to that model if they win but pretty much all their policies are things that are working successfully in other countries. Its not some grand untested experiment that some people seem to be suggesting


If you put Corbyn's policies in most European countries they'd be seen as left-of-centre but hardly viewed as radically socialist. It's just that the UK has adopted such a neo-liberalist approach to capitalism that it's become so dominant and is often presented as the only realistic option. Anything that deviates from that is often sneered at and viewed as radical by a mostly right-wing media that pushes this ideology and seeks to protect the interests of the wealthy minority

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:04 am
by slayerslays
I suppose it's one way of saving the air fare and the planet- experience Venezuela in the UK by voting Labour

I could never- they have really shat on the working class for decades....and all the while pretended to be their friend.... (ducks)

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:19 pm
by Cassius
slayerslays wrote:I suppose it's one way of saving the air fare and the planet- experience Venezuela in the UK by voting Labour


The proposed Labour policies are nothing like policies in Venezuela.

They are modeled off policies used in Norway / Sweden / Germany which you may notice are all doing pretty well with a happier population and less inequality than the UK

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:57 pm
by bloodofthekings
bloodofthekings wrote:If you put Corbyn's policies in most European countries they'd be seen as left-of-centre but hardly viewed as radically socialist. It's just that the UK has adopted such a neo-liberalist approach to capitalism that it's become so dominant and is often presented as the only realistic option. Anything that deviates from that is often sneered at and viewed as radical by a mostly right-wing media that pushes this ideology and seeks to protect the interests of the wealthy minority


slayerslays wrote:I suppose it's one way of saving the air fare and the planet- experience Venezuela in the UK by voting Labour


Pretty much proves my point

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:39 pm
by houston4044
metaldinosaur wrote:It's not an enviable choice this election, but I'm willing to take a risk on Labours radical plans. It is a very big risk, however, and people should have their eyes open to that fact.


I think it's the opposite really, I think people should be more aware that it's not a huge risk (unless it's in tandem with anything harder than a soft Brexit) and is a model used by many successful countries (Germany, Scandinavia etc). It's just the usual media spin that's given it a bad reputation (and given the alternatives those sources spout or support are far worse) that I think people need to be alert to.

and I say this as someone who isn't a Labour supporter :lol:

Btw, think the poll needs resetting :lol:

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:35 pm
by Smerphy
Ask and ye shall receive.

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:12 pm
by Black Wizard
Cassius wrote:The proposed Labour policies are nothing like policies in Venezuela.

They are modeled off policies used in Norway / Sweden / Germany which you may notice are all doing pretty well with a happier population and less inequality than the UK

The thing is, until the last couple of days I haven't heard Jezza & co. mention Norway, Sweden or Germany once when promoting their politics. I know Jezza said that Hugo Chavez had shown that "another way was possible" in Venezuela (despite seizing power in a bloody coup) and referred to Hamas as "friends". John McDonnell has also praised the "bombs and bullets" of the IRA. Perhaps this is down to selective reporting by the media, but I am not aware of any instances where he'd praised the domestic policies of any of our neighbours.

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:07 pm
by Cassius
Black Wizard wrote:
Cassius wrote:The proposed Labour policies are nothing like policies in Venezuela.

They are modeled off policies used in Norway / Sweden / Germany which you may notice are all doing pretty well with a happier population and less inequality than the UK

The thing is, until the last couple of days I haven't heard Jezza & co. mention Norway, Sweden or Germany once when promoting their politics. I know Jezza said that Hugo Chavez had shown that "another way was possible" in Venezuela (despite seizing power in a bloody coup) and referred to Hamas as "friends". John McDonnell has also praised the "bombs and bullets" of the IRA. Perhaps this is down to selective reporting by the media, but I am not aware of any instances where he'd praised the domestic policies of any of our neighbours.


tbh iv not really heard them do much comparisons to other countries themselves other than pointing out that even with the spending increase we would still be somewhere in the middle of European spending.

But the policies themselves seem clearly modelled off places like Scandinavia and Germany. Anecdotal but a Norwegian guy I was speaking to was really confused at why there was such a big fuss over Corbyn being radical as he would be a really boring middle of the road politician over there

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:25 am
by slayerslays
Cassius wrote:
slayerslays wrote:I suppose it's one way of saving the air fare and the planet- experience Venezuela in the UK by voting Labour


The proposed Labour policies are nothing like policies in Venezuela.

They are modeled off policies used in Norway / Sweden / Germany which you may notice are all doing pretty well with a happier population and less inequality than the UK


I doubt very much if Labour would reintroduce the excellent education system that they have in Germany- which is the same as the system we had in the UK until the late 1960s...and which Labour dismantled and the working class communities suffered thereafter.
I don't know about Sweden (population 10 million) and Norway (population 5.2 million) but I doubt if the demographic of those countries could be translated into the 65 million of the UK- I do know that Swedes pay LOADS more tax though

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:13 am
by Cassius
Yes Scandinavians do generally pay more tax than us and get excellent public services and infrastructure in return. If you want that level of public services and infrastructure is of course a choice but the point was that doing that has been shown to work very well economically and isnt some crazy experiment

In regards to education I dont think its really relevant what Labour or any political party did in the 60s/70s. Thats a long time ago now when the world was very different and most MPs would have either been kids or not born yet, even those who were adults at that time will likely have changed significantly over the past 50 odd years. Though from what iv seen if you were going to copy another countries education system Finland would be the 1 to look at

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:03 pm
by Black Wizard
Cassius wrote: if you were going to copy another countries education system Finland would be the 1 to look at

Since they have the highest number of Metal bands per capita I would fully support a Finnish-style education system. Perhaps in 2060 Bloodstock might start booking decent bands again.

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:17 pm
by Metalchemyst
I don't like any party's key policies enough to vote for any of them, but the Cons are the least worst. Labour are being too ambitious economically and they are borderline loony on defence and immigration.

It's been pointed out that Labour have only ever been elected when they've moved to the centre.

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:29 pm
by kanet666
Metalchemyst wrote:I don't like any party's key policies enough to vote for any of them, but the Cons are the least worst. Labour are being too ambitious economically and they are borderline loony on defence and immigration.

It's been pointed out that Labour have only ever been elected when they've moved to the centre.


Are these the key policies that they have already lied about repeatedly? For example the "40 new hospitals" that is actually at most 6, the "50,000 new nurses" which actually just double counts 19,000 existing ones and the "20,000 new police" which doesn't even make up for the ones taken off the streets by the Tories in the first place?And that's before we get into the Boris' amazing Brexit deal.

They can say what they want but Boris has a track record of lying and lying and lying yet the more he lies the more people seem to adore him. It beggars belief!

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:25 pm
by houston4044
kanet666 wrote:
They can say what they want but Boris has a track record of lying and lying and lying yet the more he lies the more people seem to adore him. It beggars belief!


Totally agree. It's much the same with the anti-elitist sentiment that's come to the fore in recent years; seen Javid and Rees-Mogg of all people co-opt it in speeches and people lap it up. How the hell people think Rees-Mogg isn't an elitist I'll never understand :o

Re: The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:13 pm
by Metalchemyst
kanet666 wrote:
Metalchemyst wrote:I don't like any party's key policies enough to vote for any of them, but the Cons are the least worst. Labour are being too ambitious economically and they are borderline loony on defence and immigration.

It's been pointed out that Labour have only ever been elected when they've moved to the centre.


Are these the key policies that they have already lied about repeatedly? For example the "40 new hospitals" that is actually at most 6, the "50,000 new nurses" which actually just double counts 19,000 existing ones and the "20,000 new police" which doesn't even make up for the ones taken off the streets by the Tories in the first place?And that's before we get into the Boris' amazing Brexit deal.

They can say what they want but Boris has a track record of lying and lying and lying yet the more he lies the more people seem to adore him. It beggars belief!
I'm not saying any party is reliable with their promises. I was assuming Labour were going to scrap our nukes but apparently not.

In the letters page of the Daily Mail yesterday (2nd Dec) there is a lot of serious criticism of all parties on their records of cutting down trees.