The UK political thread (formerly independence thread)

Put the world to rights here (off-topic discussion)

How will you vote in the 2019 UK General Election?

Conservative
1
6%
Labour
7
41%
Liberal Democrat
4
24%
SNP
0
No votes
Brexit
1
6%
Green
2
12%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
0
No votes
Won't Vote
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

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Kanwulf
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Kanwulf » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:53 am

Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:Mon the Hoops ;)


Ahhh figures. Tbh, I have family on both sides of the divide and we are Northern Irish so I try not to get into arguments like this :P Well, I mean sectarian arguments (I know that isn't really what this is) but fuck Celtic ;)
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Gandalf the Red » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:45 pm

I just wish the Celtic fans would get the message that Liverpool aren't a Catholic team. They were Methodists. :lol:
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Kanwulf » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:27 pm

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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby strangeasangels » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:31 pm

I'm not making this up but on the occasions that I've heard Scots slagging off the English, they always seem to mention Braveheart.

I often wonder if they actually know much about William Wallace beyond the pretty much fictional account in the movie.

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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Metalchemyst » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:50 pm

strangeasangels wrote:I'm not making this up but on the occasions that I've heard Scots slagging off the English, they always seem to mention Braveheart.

I often wonder if they actually know much about William Wallace beyond the pretty much fictional account in the movie.
A lot of foreigners seem to think that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are tied to England against their will.

Anyway, the big debate next is how to decentralise power throughout England. I prefer a fully federal arrangement like in Germany with a parliament/assembly in each region.

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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:21 pm

Metalchemyst wrote:
strangeasangels wrote:I'm not making this up but on the occasions that I've heard Scots slagging off the English, they always seem to mention Braveheart.

I often wonder if they actually know much about William Wallace beyond the pretty much fictional account in the movie.
A lot of foreigners seem to think that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are tied to England against their will.


Funny that, I don't seem to remember reading anywhere about any kind of democratic procedure in partitioning Ireland in 1920. Not even Ulster Unionists were in favour of partition and Lord Craigavon himself later said he felt he had been hoodwinked into accepting it by Lloyd George. Yes the possibility for Northern Ireland to vote on its place in the Union is there now, but the very existence of Northern Ireland is undemocratic, it was created out of political expediency by Downing Street without any input from the people who actually lived there. So the power for Northern Ireland to vote on its own place in the Union nowadays is a hollow one given that as a statelet it shouldn't exist anyway.
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Kanwulf » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:36 pm

There is no chance in hell that Northern Ireland will be getting a referendum anytime soon.
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:45 am

I agree, and no one is calling for one any time soon anyway. In 15 years though Sinn Feín will be the largest party in the North and will likely be in government in the south as well. Loyalism as a populist movement can only muster 5% if what it could do 25 years ago and unionist voter apathy is at an all time high. In 30 years we'll probably be secularised enough that sectarianism will barely exist. The only logical outcome after all that is either an independent Northern Ireland or a United Ireland.
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby malicious_bloke » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:43 am

Metalchemyst wrote:Image


Not like that.

Don't want to be lumped in the the cornish untermensch. Let them have their own fail country.
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Jage » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:13 am

Yorkshire and the Humber is too big a region really, I think.

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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Metalchemyst » Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:36 pm

Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:
Metalchemyst wrote:A lot of foreigners seem to think that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are tied to England against their will.
Funny that, I don't seem to remember reading anywhere about any kind of democratic procedure in partitioning Ireland in 1920. Not even Ulster Unionists were in favour of partition and Lord Craigavon himself later said he felt he had been hoodwinked into accepting it by Lloyd George. Yes the possibility for Northern Ireland to vote on its place in the Union is there now, but the very existence of Northern Ireland is undemocratic, it was created out of political expediency by Downing Street without any input from the people who actually lived there. So the power for Northern Ireland to vote on its own place in the Union nowadays is a hollow one given that as a statelet it shouldn't exist anyway.
All the nations have undemocratic origins so the key thing is that they have the current freedom to choose. In the 1973 referendum 99% of the Northern Irish voted to stay in the UK.
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:40 pm

The 1973 referendum was a joke. The majority of catholics didn't vote back then and rightly so seeing as so many election boundaries were gerrymandered to return Unionist majorities making it pointless to even bother. This isn't just the Orange State of 1921-1972 I'm talking about here, those boundaries remained for a good while into the return to rule from Westminster. 99% of people who voted in that election voted to stay in the UK because 99% of the people voted were protestant unionists. It was a Downing Street public relations exercise to justify internment, state-sponsored violence and diplock courts to the international media, simple as that.

And even now the current freedom to choose counts for shite all when we don't have the self-governance to make it financially viable. We have different economic needs here than England but we still get lumbered with a one-size-fits-all taxing and spending programme that is designed only with England in mind. Tory MPs have a chip on their shoulders about NI MPs getting a say in English matters? Fine, we'll trade you powers over our tax and public spending. It's only 18 votes out 650 anyway, 5 of them who abstain. We're not going to be able to change anything for ourselves from Westminster, and we can do fuck all from Stormont without that remit. Catch 22 situation. But hey, it doesn't matter as long as we know we can vote to leave at any time?
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby CrappyMike » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:10 pm

all four countries should have more individual power. it is important to remember that westminster is the UK government and england dont have a parliament just for them, which they should have to deal with issues specific to england. there are benefits to the union but each country is different and as such needs different things, some things a UK government will always need to deal with but there are a lot of things that need a more local perspective, at least as local as within each of the 4 countries. a uk government also cannot really always do whats best for england as they have to think about the UK as a whole.

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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Metalchemyst » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:14 am

Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:The 1973 referendum was a joke. The majority of catholics didn't vote back then and rightly so seeing as so many election boundaries were gerrymandered to return Unionist majorities making it pointless to even bother. This isn't just the Orange State of 1921-1972 I'm talking about here, those boundaries remained for a good while into the return to rule from Westminster. 99% of people who voted in that election voted to stay in the UK because 99% of the people voted were protestant unionists. It was a Downing Street public relations exercise to justify internment, state-sponsored violence and diplock courts to the international media, simple as that.
The 1973 referendum was not one-man one-vote like the one we've just had?
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Re: Scottish Independence thread

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:50 am

It was but after 52 years of not having one man one vote, discrimination in public housing to control votes and rigged election boundaries confidence in the electoral system as a whole was understandably not that high. Bear in mind as well the people telling them you can vote to leave were pointing guns at them and coming to lock their sons up without charge on a daily basis at that point too, and turning a blind eye to other people with guns coming to kill them.

It was a nice gesture from Britain to give the first ever democratic vote in NI but they knew the turnout would give a disproportionate result and knew it would buy them some political capital abroad. That was their agenda.
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