Should Wales be on the flag?

[Metalchemyst]

I know the red saltire is not officially the flag of Northern Ireland but it's the closest we've got and has been used in an official context. The green on the Welsh flag is the darker shade that was originally used.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

Well the reason why Wales was never included in the Union Flag in the first place is because there never was a Welsh parliament to be dissolved by an act of union like happened with Scotland in 1707 and Ireland in 1801. It had been annexed with England since I think the 16th century. The original union flag as far as I know was used after the Scottish act and was similar to the one in the bottom right of the image there, although the saltire was actually on top of the St. George's cross.

The red saltire is called a St. Patrick's Cross and was introduced in 1783 when catholics and dissenters were given the vote for the Irish parliament for the first time. The official flag of Ireland remained the gold harp on a dark blue background which in 1801 was added to the British royal standard and the St. Patrick's Cross to the union flag which became the official flag of the UK.

The St. Patrick's cross has since only been used unofficially (sometimes with a Red Hand Of Ulster added), and somewhat ironically by the Orange Order given their hatred for self-governance which is what the flag originally represented, and the fact St. Patrick is generally seen as a "catholic saint" (although being pre-reformation he is still a saint in the protestant Church Of Ireland...). But no one ever accused unionists of making any sense, and at least it's not divisive like most of the flags they use.

A lot of people still think the red cross on a white background with a masonic 6-point star, English royal crown and the Red Hand Of Ulster is the official flag of Northern Ireland, but in fact we haven't had an official flag since home rule was reintroduced in 1972.

The provincial Ulster flag (red cross on yellow background with Red Hand sometimes inside a white circle) gets used a lot as well, usually at rugby games, but also sometimes by unionists as Northern Ireland and the province of Ulster (which also includes the counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal in the Republic) are interchangeable in their minds. Still, it's about the only non-offensive flag that can be used here as yellow is a politically neutral colour and the Red Hand is a pre-christian symbol.

So technically because the St. Patrick's Cross represents all of Ireland (or did historically) the flag should have been redesigned after partition in 1920 and replaced with something only representing the 6 counties of the north. Maybe combine the red dragon and Red Hand Of Ulster for an emblem in the middle of the flag, or a mixture of yellow and black backgrounds?

[Gandalf the Red]

No. It's not a country. Flying Idris the Dragon (and Scottish, Northern Irish and Cornish flags for that matter) is alright for tourism. But that's all. You don't see St George's crosses everywhere, unless it's during the football or outside a chavs house.

Next they'll be trying to put rainbows into it.

[Turbo]

No option for couldn't care less.

[AnnihiSlateR]

Just slap a ruddy big dragon over the current flag.

[keera_envenomed]

How about ditching the rectangle and just having the union flag in the shape of a dragon?

[Turbo]

Ill just eat the occasional cheese toastie to embrace my inner Welsh, then spunk a load of Worcestershire sauce all over it because lolfukdawelsh.


Double gloucester cheese and Warburtons bread. Hail to England.

[Metalchemyst]

Well the reason why Wales was never included in the Union Flag in the first place is because there never was a Welsh parliament to be dissolved by an act of union like happened with Scotland in 1707 and Ireland in 1801. It had been annexed with England since I think the 16th century. The original union flag as far as I know was used after the Scottish act and was similar to the one in the bottom right of the image there, although the saltire was actually on top of the St. George's cross.

The red saltire is called a St. Patrick's Cross and was introduced in 1783 when catholics and dissenters were given the vote for the Irish parliament for the first time. The official flag of Ireland remained the gold harp on a dark blue background which in 1801 was added to the British royal standard and the St. Patrick's Cross to the union flag which became the official flag of the UK.

The St. Patrick's cross has since only been used unofficially (sometimes with a Red Hand Of Ulster added), and somewhat ironically by the Orange Order given their hatred for self-governance which is what the flag originally represented, and the fact St. Patrick is generally seen as a "catholic saint" (although being pre-reformation he is still a saint in the protestant Church Of Ireland...). But no one ever accused unionists of making any sense, and at least it's not divisive like most of the flags they use.

A lot of people still think the red cross on a white background with a masonic 6-point star, English royal crown and the Red Hand Of Ulster is the official flag of Northern Ireland, but in fact we haven't had an official flag since home rule was reintroduced in 1972.

The provincial Ulster flag (red cross on yellow background with Red Hand sometimes inside a white circle) gets used a lot as well, usually at rugby games, but also sometimes by unionists as Northern Ireland and the province of Ulster (which also includes the counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal in the Republic) are interchangeable in their minds. Still, it's about the only non-offensive flag that can be used here as yellow is a politically neutral colour and the Red Hand is a pre-christian symbol.

So technically because the St. Patrick's Cross represents all of Ireland (or did historically) the flag should have been redesigned after partition in 1920 and replaced with something only representing the 6 counties of the north. Maybe combine the red dragon and Red Hand Of Ulster for an emblem in the middle of the flag, or a mixture of yellow and black backgrounds?

That is the technical reason Wales is not represented but since it's identity has endured and since it now has an assembly I think there is a case for putting it on. The original Union Flag came about when James of Scotland became joint King of England - he ordered the two flags to be combined and red cross over the white saltire was eventually accepted. After the 1707 union it naturally became the national flag.

The red saltire has no historic links with St. Patrick himself but there are some references to it being used by Irish sailors. It was used in the emblem of the Anglo-Irish Order of Saint Patrick and, it seems, for those two reasons and the fact it would fit quite nicely onto the Union Jack, it was the one used. I agree the flag should have been altered after the partition of Ireland, probably just by removing the red saltire alltogether. Too late now though since the Unionists would take it as a message of abandonment I think.

If Scotland leaves, the flag will need a new background anyway so I think it would be best to simply change the blue to black now and then any changes after that would be simple. Give Wales the credit now instead of just using one of their flags for aesthetic reasons if the Scottish element disappears.

[Metalchemyst]

How about ditching the rectangle and just having the union flag in the shape of a dragon?

That would be pretty much reviving the ancient/medieval windsock banner:

[keera_envenomed]

How about ditching the rectangle and just having the union flag in the shape of a dragon?

That would be pretty much reviving the ancient/medieval windsock banner:

Well that is the last time we had a monarch from an English family.

[Gandalf the Red]

How about ditching the rectangle and just having the union flag in the shape of a dragon?

That would be pretty much reviving the ancient/medieval windsock banner:

Well that is the last time we had a monarch from an English family.

Saxon.

Not been a "British" monarch since at least 827. Even the Scottish ones (James and Charles) were mainly of European descent.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

The red saltire has no historic links with St. Patrick himself but there are some references to it being used by Irish sailors. It was used in the emblem of the Anglo-Irish Order of Saint Patrick and, it seems, for those two reasons and the fact it would fit quite nicely onto the Union Jack, it was the one used. I agree the flag should have been altered after the partition of Ireland, probably just by removing the red saltire alltogether. Too late now though since the Unionists would take it as a message of abandonment I think.

Never heard of an association of sailors, I've always figured it was based on the Fitgerald family heraldry, the Earls Of Kildare which was broadly similar. I didn't know about the Jacobean origins of the original union flag either, that's interesting.


If we were going for a total overhaul if Scotland leave I think the best bet is to get rid of all the saint connections altogether and just have a Tudor rose, a Welsh dragon and a red hand on a black background. That would actually look badass. The rose is a bit gay but A DRAGON AND A SEVERED HAND?? That would make all other world flags look pussy by comparison.

[Metalchemyst]

Well that is the last time we had a monarch from an English family.

Saxon.

Not been a "British" monarch since at least 827. Even the Scottish ones (James and Charles) were mainly of European descent.

The Anglo-Saxons had an English identity by 1066 although Harold is believed to have been half Swedish from his mother (she advised him to surround the Normans and starve them out). All or most of the monarchs were of mixed ancestry but the Stewarts were definitely of a Scottish/British line. Since George I we've had the Hanoverian German line (to simplify it).

[Metalchemyst]

Never heard of an association of sailors, I've always figured it was based on the Fitgerald family heraldry, the Earls Of Kildare which was broadly similar. I didn't know about the Jacobean origins of the original union flag either, that's interesting.

This will probably interest you: http://samsflags.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11 ... s-pt7.html

Also this: http://samsflags.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10 ... -flag.html

Which of those flags from the Facebook list do you think is best?

If we were going for a total overhaul if Scotland leave I think the best bet is to get rid of all the saint connections altogether and just have a Tudor rose, a Welsh dragon and a red hand on a black background. That would actually look badass. The rose is a bit gay but A DRAGON AND A SEVERED HAND?? That would make all other world flags look pussy by comparison.

That's a pretty good idea. I'll knock one up based on your description.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

Also this: http://samsflags.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10 ... -flag.html

Which of those flags from the Facebook list do you think is best?

I like the way the red hand is placed in a hexagon in #3, #11 and #27. It makes it clear that it's a Northern Ireland flag and not an Ulster provincial flag. But if it was up to me I'd do away with the crosses and religious symbols altogether and just focus on the red hand and the number 6 to represent the 6 counties.