EU Referendum and Afterwards

Put the world to rights here (off-topic discussion)

Will Scotland vote to leave the UK before the General Election of 2020?

Yes
9
53%
No
8
47%
 
Total votes: 17

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Metalchemyst
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EU Referendum and Afterwards

Postby Metalchemyst » Tue May 31, 2016 7:19 am

I don't think it will make a big difference to anything (including immigration) if we stay or leave but coming out will at least improve our democratic situation and probably cut immigration a bit so I'll be voting for that.
Last edited by Metalchemyst on Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Tue May 31, 2016 11:13 am

Immediate effects of leaving- vote of no confidence in the government, Tory leadership challenge, maybe even triggering an early general election. Economic effects unknown, but probably bad yet minimal. Certainly nowhere near as bad as the doom and gloom the remain campaign are predicting.

Long term effects of leaving- Britain will still be bound by the European Convention Of Human Rights unless the government decide to leave it so the idea of there suddenly being a load of government abuses by leaving the EU is a fallacy. Beach and wildlife pollution will be a real threat without the EU but we won't be freed from carbon emission targets etc so it's not all bad for the environment. The process of actually leaving will take years and be preoccupied with trade renegotiations. Retaining any benefits of the common market will likely having to mean continuing to take similar or even greater number of EU migrants (see Norway and Switzerland). America, Australia, China, India, Japan and Brazil will all be pissy about having to deal with Britain separately but they'll still do it.

Also, you lot will have to join the non-EU queue at European airports unless you have dual-nationality with an EU country. I'll have lots of fun seeing how many of my protestant mates get Irish passports for travelling just to avoid this.

Ultimately we'll come out about the same economically either way. More unstable if it's a leave verdict but definitely not catastrophic great depression. Immigration will probably continue to climb no matter what. If it is a remain verdict then we'll have blown the one chance to avoid economic and defense policy eventually being dictated by Brussels autocrats which is the main reason I'm voting leave.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby kanet666 » Tue May 31, 2016 11:55 am

Undecided myself. It would be grand if the media/campaigns would start objectively reporting facts and allow people to make their own decisions rather than throwing shade at each other on a daily basis though.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Smerphy » Tue May 31, 2016 1:07 pm

I'd be happy with either outcome so I chose will not vote, although I likely will vote.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby keera_envenomed » Tue May 31, 2016 2:05 pm

Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:Long term effects of leaving- Britain will still be bound by the European Convention Of Human Rights unless the government decide to leave it so the idea of there suddenly being a load of government abuses by leaving the EU is a fallacy.


They've literally said they are going to do that....
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Tue May 31, 2016 3:46 pm

Who, the government who are leading the remain campaign?
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Nantha » Tue May 31, 2016 4:01 pm

It's really odd. I find that most of the people I disagree with politically are anti-brexit. Most of them seem to be voting as such just because they have some pipe dream of moving to -insert attractive northern european country here - and they think somehow voting leave makes them racist, so I'm not sure how much actual cognition is involved.

I have enough reasons to vote remain but my gut instinct is just saying no. Key concerns for me are housing prices, immigration and regaining control. But our failures at curbing immigration won't be remedied by leaving the EU i suspect, still at least Turkey doesn't seem set to join us anytime soon.
It would be helpful to have some information on how leaving the eu would affect someone who will hopefully be travelling abroad regularly for work. Will I need expensive VISA's? Will european touring be affected at all?

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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby thehairyone » Tue May 31, 2016 5:40 pm

In, definitely. A lot of assumptions are being made by both sides about what both staying and leaving would mean, but I remain convinced we're better in than out.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Turbo » Tue May 31, 2016 5:54 pm

In. Don't like change. Alot of maybe thises and possibly that's in the out camp, I have been directly helped by the EU in the past with regards to living in the EU, alot of paper work and formalities avoided thanks to it and although I don't intend to fuck off again to live...I would very much still like to have the option if I was forced to.

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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Tue May 31, 2016 8:23 pm

Nantha wrote:It would be helpful to have some information on how leaving the eu would affect someone who will hopefully be travelling abroad regularly for work. Will I need expensive VISA's? Will european touring be affected at all?


Well American (etc.) bands don't need work permits for anywhere in the EU at present except for the UK so I'm assuming if we left UK bands wouldn't need them.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Haldamir319 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:47 am

I have a question here for any Brexiters (it's not meant to be inflammatory, just genuinely curious): Have you directly been affected by current level of EU immigration here? Secondly, was that effect positive or negative? I mainly ask as, I don't know if I'm an odd one out here but, I don't see much evidence where I live/work/socialise of a negative effect from EU-based immigration. (I live in South Yorkshire, work in the public sector, and tend to frequent real ale pubs and rock bars/clubs).

As for the EU itself - I feel the benefits we gain from it far outweigh the negatives. Yes, we pay into it, but we get freedom of movement of goods, workers, services and capital out of it. I don't think the EU is perfect (far from it!), but I think we need to be in the EU, and a driving force within it, to help mould it into what it can/should be, than be on the outside.

One key point to remember - if we were to leave, we would (very) likely look to negotiate access to the single market (it's the thing we want most out of it). If we were to follow Norway or Switzerland's model, we would likely have to accept freedom of movement of people anyway. On top of that, by accessing the single market, we would be bound by EU rules on how to operate within it. The key thing here is, while we would be in the single market, we would have no say over how it operates. We already have access to the single market and have a seat at the table for discussing how it is implemented.

In short - leaving gives rise to the possibility of a very similar set of circumstances (regarding trade and immigration), but with less-to-no say over the rules that would govern them.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Tet » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:06 pm

keera_envenomed wrote:
Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:Long term effects of leaving- Britain will still be bound by the European Convention Of Human Rights unless the government decide to leave it so the idea of there suddenly being a load of government abuses by leaving the EU is a fallacy.

They've literally said they are going to do that....

Well, no. Theresa May said that. It's not government policy. But she's far from the first politician to say ridiculous things, and she won't be the last. But even she was quite clear that it's unrelated to the UK's membership of the EU. She said:
Theresa May wrote:So regardless of the EU referendum, my view is this: if we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its court.

Note also that even were we the leave the ECHR (which seems unlikely), we'd still be bound by its terms since it was incorporated into British law by the Human Rights Act 1998. Of course, that could also be repealed at some point, but that's an awful lot of hoops that need to be jumped through.

Theresa May remains, in my opinion, the single biggest extant threat to the UK and the British way of life. But I don't think bailing from the ECHR is likely to happen, regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby tmcgoay » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:27 pm

When Michael Gove and Donald Trump think we should leave staying has to be the best idea
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:07 pm

Haldamir319 wrote:but I think we need to be in the EU, and a driving force within it, to help mould it into what it can/should be, than be on the outside.


Haldamir319 wrote:but with less-to-no say over the rules that would govern them.


You do realise we already have no say over that? We have representatives in the EU parliament, who have no power whatsoever over EU policy.

In a nutshell, if we are going to have freedom of movement with the EU in order to have access to the single market etc. anyway even if we leave then why do we need the autocratic rule of Brussels?
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Re: POLL: The EU Referendum

Postby Metalchemyst » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:41 pm

Haldamir319 wrote:I have a question here for any Brexiters (it's not meant to be inflammatory, just genuinely curious): Have you directly been affected by current level of EU immigration here? Secondly, was that effect positive or negative?
Any political or general forum that discourages controversial topics is not worth being a member of.

I'm not especially concerned about immigration from the EU. If I had the power I would reduce non-EU immigration by 75% and EU immigration by 25%. But since virtually no progress has been made on the former then we must have a crack at reducing EU immigration since, ultimately, it is the total amount that is most important. No, it hasn't affected me yet but it stands to reason that a growing population in an already densely populated country will put pressure on public services and the environment. And it seems likely that Turkey will eventually join, making things worse. Also, Albanians, Romanians, Lithuanians, Czechs, Latvians, Slovakians and Bulgarians are all highly over-represented in our prison population so the system is obviously pulling in more than a fair share of baddies.
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