EU Referendum and Afterwards

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

Oh hello thought crime.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1937_en.htm

[Gandalf the Red]

Sand dogs? These haven't got over to you yet then?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/s ... 44126.html

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

Haha no our lot just sell the Big Issue and beg.

[Tet]

The ones I've seen are nowhere near as detailed as the one in that photo!

[Metalchemyst]

I heard the EU army thing was a hoax?

An exaggeration but not a hoax. Bang up-to-date:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europ ... SKCN0YP11B

But I think all that is reasonable. After all, there is no guarantee that America will always be there to back us up. However, we could surely still be part of a European military alliance without being in the EU. They're not going to say no:

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

[houston4044]

I'm in the leave camp, as much as I like and want a strong links with Europe, my dislike of the EU and the way it works wants me out of that. Pro Europe/anti-EU.

Some points:
- People saying if we want to change the EU we have to change it from the inside...how? If it was as easy as that wouldn't we have done that by now? It's clear that the EU cannot be changed in such a drastic way that IT (not the UK) needs to if it's to survive and grow rather than carry on just slumping from one crisis to another. Leaving is the only way to make a change rather than continue to cling to an institution that won't change but we will continue to believe in vain that it will.

-Our defense won't be compromised as much I've seen purported due to our ties with NATO and the fact the EU co-operates with other countries on their boarder who aren't EU members in intelligence sharing. Leaving won't make us less secure.

-House prices falling is a good thing, we're heading for another bubble anyway at least this gives us a bit of breathing room (which will inevitably be ignored no doubt) to figure out a strong safety net at worst or a way to head off a bubble. That, and will be one of the few ways people of my generation will be able to afford a house.

[Metalchemyst]

Anyone changed their mind?

[Gandalf the Red]

I was borderline until I got a letter in the post from Jeremy Corbyn the other day telling me I should vote Remain. That has made me more likely to vote out seeing as he has hardly said a word on the issue until now.

[tmcgoay]

don't panic! Boris has said that he will apologise if the economy crumbles after a leave win

[NeglectedField]

I'm way too hungover to do some proper boning up on Referend-eve.

[houston4044]

Leave gets labelled project fear, apart from twat what does Osbourne get labelled after his hysterical outbursts?

[kanet666]

Leave gets labelled project fear, apart from twat what does Osbourne get labelled after his hysterical outbursts?

I've seen far too many people pulling the racism card or cherrypicking people on both sides as proof that Remain is the only "correct" vote. People seem to be forgetting that both sides of this referendum have been talking complete bollocks over the course of the campaign.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

"If in doubt vote Remain because we don't know what all the effects will be if we vote Leave."

How is that not the ultimate in fearmongering?

Up until the last few days I've been happy enough with people voting Leave for all the wrong reasons (e.g. the complete non-issue of immigration.) After all the democracy and sovereignty issue is so complex it would go over most people's heads, much easier to appeal to base racism.

But the problem with that is it has allowed the Remain campaign to be based almost entirely on shameless virtue signalling and other non-issues that don't belong anywhere in this discussion, like the ECHR which is not even remotely related to what we are voting on leaving. By keeping the campaign centred on the one thing that won't change regardless if we leave or stay (free movement) it means Remain supporters haven't had to engage with what should have been the sole issue- how the EU is structured and how reforming it from the inside so that it's policy agenda is actually mandated by and accountable to the people is impossible.

The number of times I've been called a racist instead of people responding to and debating my concerns about an autocratic European Commission is staggering. If anything I think most people are actually even more ignorant about the reality of what the EU is than they were in the beginning, which is the ultimate failure in what should have been a chance to publicly discuss and vote on the very nature of democracy. Hell I even put a photo on Facebook this morning of me flipping the bird at Jean-Claude Juncker and several people who I know are voting Remain liked it, probably thinking it was someone from the Tory party. How can people go to the polls to vote on leaving or staying in an institution whose president they don't even recognise?

I did think maybe the best outcome would be a narrow Leave victory which the government and the EU would ignore (like the EU has done with every plebiscite against it bar one in the past), so that people might actually realise what an affront to democracy it is. But from what I've seen from some people actually hoping that a Leave victory would be ignored and sharing those memes trying to trick Leave voters to show up to the polls on Friday etc. I wouldn't hold out hope for that.

It makes me sad that I've lost so much respect for people I like and care about, otherwise brilliantly intelligent people even, who are not just voting because of complete non-issues and voting with complete ignorance on what the EU is and stands for, but are even showing just as much contempt for direct democracy as the EU do themselves. The only ones I still have respect for are those voting because of environmental concerns or funding concerns, most of those being friends who work in the science industry themselves. At least they have a real reason behind their vote, not this "I'm voting in because Farage is a racist", "stronger together #lovenothate" bullshit.

[NeglectedField]

I'm torn between giving people a rinsing for their horridness, self-righteousness and pseudo-intellectualism and not wanting to play into any potential divide and conquer tactic.

[S'tan]

Well I'm sad enough to be sat up watching the results coming in from around the country and it's certainly proving intersting and very close this early in the counting!

One thing that has been good to see during the results coverage is the turnout at the polling stations, by all accounts more people have used their vote in this referendum than they did in the general election. It's still nowhere near where it should be though, turnouts seem to be sitting around 65% so there's still a lot of apathy out there which could havre made a difference!

Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.....