EU Referendum and Afterwards

[Gandalf the Red]

At the moment I'm in two minds.


But I'm just glad that eventually we will have a referendum about the EU. People of my age will understand. We got dragged into something that nobody voted for, that's what pisses everyone off.

But. Beware. A vote against the EU may be a vote into the wilderness. But a vote for the EU will be virtually starting a European Union in more ways than one. There isn't any going back.

[Nantha]

My answer to that question is yes, I've been affected by eu immigration. But I would say in more positive than negative ways.
I'm an eu immigrant myself FYI so I can't really start throwing shade about it anyway. But my dads girlfriend is a polish immigrant, many of my friends are eu immigrants, I began a relationship with a Belgian national on my course last year and he ended up staying in London and we now live together, if he had not been EU he wouldn't have been able to get a visa and that would have just been the end of that.
I mean I'm sure I would get by and be happy with life with us being out of the eu too, but I can't really think of how my life has been made any worse by eu immigration... Okay so all the Italian sound engineers who have moved over to London irritates me a little, but that's it.

[keera_envenomed]

Long term effects of leaving- Britain will still be bound by the European Convention Of Human Rights unless the government decide to leave it so the idea of there suddenly being a load of government abuses by leaving the EU is a fallacy.

They've literally said they are going to do that....

Well, no. Theresa May said that. It's not government policy. But she's far from the first politician to say ridiculous things, and she won't be the last. But even she was quite clear that it's unrelated to the UK's membership of the EU. She said:

So regardless of the EU referendum, my view is this: if we want to reform human rights laws in this country, it isn’t the EU we should leave but the ECHR and the jurisdiction of its court.

Note also that even were we the leave the ECHR (which seems unlikely), we'd still be bound by its terms since it was incorporated into British law by the Human Rights Act 1998. Of course, that could also be repealed at some point, but that's an awful lot of hoops that need to be jumped through.

Theresa May remains, in my opinion, the single biggest extant threat to the UK and the British way of life. But I don't think bailing from the ECHR is likely to happen, regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Yeah my bad - it's only at the consultation stage atm. I thought it had gone further.

Anyway, I work for the EU so you can probably guess how I'm voting.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

But. Beware. A vote against the EU may be a vote into the wilderness. But a vote for the EU will be virtually starting a European Union in more ways than one. There isn't any going back.

This is my worry. The European Commission has no democratic authority for the decision making power that member states surrender to it. This one time vote we're being given will either legitimate or de-legitimate that autocratic structure. A vote to remain will be taken as a permanent mandate for the European Commission.

Everyone is looking at the short term losses and gains of being in or out in this instead of looking at the long term prospect of dangerously centralised power in Brussels. If we stay in before long our economic policy is going to start being dictated to us by the European Central Bank, large swathes of defense power and policy is going to be controlled as part of an EU army, the NHS will be dismantled under corporate competitive laws...

Too many people are getting blindsided by the immigration issue or the economic benefits in this, or basing their decision on the admittedly good legislation that has come out of the EU in terms of environmental protection, workplace rights etc. and not worrying about where this legislation comes from and how we have literally zero power to control it, good or bad.

[Nantha]

I heard the EU army thing was a hoax?

[Jobdone]

the NHS will be dismantled under corporate competitive laws...

I'm struggling to find major examples so far, but one has popped up in Northern Ireland and in Spain, where it rules that social purposes (Basically public healthcare) don't count under the competitive laws.


http://nhsconfed.org/~/media/Confederat ... _final.pdf

There's also the fact that the conservatives have been undermining a lot of the NHS already

And if we're talking about dodgy dealings that make me uncomfortable, there's been a lot of pushback on the TTIP from EU member states, while Cameron has historically been pushing for it

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 34330.html

Basically I think there's issues with the EU, but there's just as many issues with separating from them that have already been brought up.

The problem is while I trust the EU more than I trust our current government, I am hoping it's close. An overwhelming remain vote may squash out the potential for future referendums where changes in the EU may change my opinion.

But yeah, voting remain for now.

[keera_envenomed]

I heard the EU army thing was a hoax?

Nope - the EU does have a small military force but it doesn't really do much. I very much doubt it will expand to any great size - NATO and the UN do the things that any EU force would possibly do for now.

I would be very very surprised if defence policy came under EU jurisdiction. That will always be a scared cow for even the most federalist of members.

[Tet]

I began a relationship with a Belgian national on my course last year and he ended up staying in London and we now live together, if he had not been EU he wouldn't have been able to get a visa and that would have just been the end of that.

That seems unlikely to be true. Do you have any reason to believe he wouldn't have been able to get a visa? Sure, it would have been a bit more effort than the current state of just not needing one at all. But far too many of the arguments (on both sides of the fence on this issue) have been "we currently have X, we won't have X if we leave". The reality is more likely to be "we currently have X, we'll have X in a slightly different form if we leave, or we'll have Y instead which achieves the same things".

[keera_envenomed]

I began a relationship with a Belgian national on my course last year and he ended up staying in London and we now live together, if he had not been EU he wouldn't have been able to get a visa and that would have just been the end of that.

That seems unlikely to be true. Do you have any reason to believe he wouldn't have been able to get a visa? Sure, it would have been a bit more effort than the current state of just not needing one at all. But far too many of the arguments (on both sides of the fence on this issue) have been "we currently have X, we won't have X if we leave". The reality is more likely to be "we currently have X, we'll have X in a slightly different form if we leave, or we'll have Y instead which achieves the same things".

Going by the current non-EU visa rules, he would almost certainly have been allowed to come to the UK on a student visa but probably staying after finishing studying would be an issue unless he had 1. found a high paying job (I know the threshold is going to be upped to £35k but I don't what it currently is) or 2. had a partner who was earning at least £18k (again, that info may be out of date but that's what it was when someone I worked with wanted his Mexican gf to move to the UK). But then again, would a different system for EU nationals exist?

Just highlights the main problem with the leave campaign - they haven't put their heads together and come up with a viable, complete vision of what a non-EU UK would look like. It's all "lets do something about X issue but we haven't actually decided what yet!"

[Gandalf the Red]

To be honest immigration (within reasonable levels) is not a problem with me. Most of my family are immigrants to the point that some of them were interned on the Isle Of Man.

Some of them stayed there and that's why I've always had a love of the Island.

But I'm from a city that is a migrant city. I like most of them, but I can't stand the sudden influx of people that want to be ghettoised*, beg and rob. Come here to work, socialise and settle down then you're fine.


*Anyone who is from my neck of the woods or similar knows that I mean certain racial groups want an area and they want that area and don't want anyone else in "their" area and turn it into a "little (insert country here)".

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

But I'm from a city that is a migrant city. I like most of them, but I can't stand the sudden influx of people that want to be ghettoised*, beg and rob. Come here to work, socialise and settle down then you're fine.

This is my experience as well. I've worked with and befriended Poles, Slovaks, Latvians, Estonians, Greeks, Portuguese, Chinese, Filipinos, Indians, Turks, Iranians, Zimbabweans, Nigerians... so I've got a lot more experience with migrants than most of the people who'd insinuate I'm a racist for being anti-EU. Most of those groups are definitely here to work and contribute. The Chinese and Indians in particular contribute a lot to Northern Ireland culturally as well economically, just like Italians in the 19th and early to mid 20th century did.

The Romanian Roma are the only work-shy immigrant group in Belfast that I've encountered but when I last lived in the Holy Lands alongside a lot of them there were a handful of kids rebelling against their parents and their culture of petty criminality by going to school etc.

Elsewhere in Ireland though I see Arab and African communities trying to ghetto-ise themselves and impose their own beliefs and culture. I'm not saying if you move to Ireland you have to start drinking whiskey and fornicating like the Eastern Europeans or the Brazilians do, but if you are going to confront people along the canal in Dublin and tell them they can't drink cans because it's a Sharia Law zone then I've got a serious problem. So far it's just a couple of Arab teens doing shit like that, but before long I can see it becoming a major issue down there like I've seen it in other cities like Bradford, Brussels or Copenhagen.

[Haldamir319]

but I think we need to be in the EU, and a driving force within it, to help mould it into what it can/should be, than be on the outside.

but with less-to-no say over the rules that would govern them.

You do realise we already have no say over that? We have representatives in the EU parliament, who have no power whatsoever over EU policy.

While technically true, it's not like the EU Commission aren't accountable for the work they do.

The EU Commission President is put forward by the EU Council (which is made up of the heads of state - ie people that were voted in) and voted on by the EU Parliament (which is made up of MEPs, the guys we vote in). The rest of the seats in the Commission (one for each EU country) are then decided on by a combination of the Council and the President.

It's also worth noting that the Commission requires a vote of approval from the EU Parliament, and the latter has the power to dismiss the body.

Basically, you vote for MEPs/the Prime Minister and, as part of their elected duties:
*The MEPs vote for the President of the Commission
*The Prime Minister helps the suggest who should be President, and gets to vote on the make up of the remainder of the Commission.

Apart from heaps of red tape that could do with streamlining, I'm not sure what a better alternative would be? Directly elect the Commission? But would that, essentially make us a federated European Superstate? (Which many do not care for).

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

That's already the direction it is going in- irregardless of how the Commission is constructed it already has power far exceeding what it should have. The amount it can influence and override policy of member states far outweighs the amount of influence individual member states can have over it, especially with smaller nations like Ireland.

And despite having one of the higher populations in the EU does anyone really kid themselves into thinking the UK is a major string-puller in Brussels? At best Cameron is on the periphery of that cabal.

[Gandalf the Red]

But I'm from a city that is a migrant city. I like most of them, but I can't stand the sudden influx of people that want to be ghettoised*, beg and rob. Come here to work, socialise and settle down then you're fine.

This is my experience as well. I've worked with and befriended Poles, Slovaks, Latvians, Estonians, Greeks, Portuguese, Chinese, Filipinos, Indians, Turks, Iranians, Zimbabweans, Nigerians... so I've got a lot more experience with migrants than most of the people who'd insinuate I'm a racist for being anti-EU. Most of those groups are definitely here to work and contribute. The Chinese and Indians in particular contribute a lot to Northern Ireland culturally as well economically, just like Italians in the 19th and early to mid 20th century did.

The Romanian Roma are the only work-shy immigrant group in Belfast that I've encountered but when I last lived in the Holy Lands alongside a lot of them there were a handful of kids rebelling against their parents and their culture of petty criminality by going to school etc.

Elsewhere in Ireland though I see Arab and African communities trying to ghetto-ise themselves and impose their own beliefs and culture. I'm not saying if you move to Ireland you have to start drinking whiskey and fornicating like the Eastern Europeans or the Brazilians do, but if you are going to confront people along the canal in Dublin and tell them they can't drink cans because it's a Sharia Law zone then I've got a serious problem. So far it's just a couple of Arab teens doing shit like that, but before long I can see it becoming a major issue down there like I've seen it in other cities like Bradford, Brussels or Copenhagen.

Apart from the Romanian beggars and their "sand dogs"* the ones that very few people like around here are the Somalis. The West Indians in particular have a very big dislike of them. You can have a pint with the Windies, the Somalis want to burn the pub down.

*Which are made of plastic and not made of sand at all, even though they have a big pile of sand next to it. Accidentally kick one next time you walk past one. The reaction is usually hilarious.

[Matty_the_Emo_Slayer]

Sand dog?? What are you on about mate?


And yeah, Somalis are one of the nationalities I just assume are all mad cunts. Aside from the fact a lot of them are radical sunnis they also haven't really had stable law and order in their own country for 25 years now.

A lot of people have it in for anyone from the Baltic states in Northern Ireland, and not just the mongo Loyalist skinheads either. They have a bad reputation because of a few incidents in the newspapers over the years, like a feud between Latvian families in Portadown that apparently started over a rape and resulted with a car full of brothers being stopped on their way to take revenge with a load of weapons in the boot. And when I say weapons I mean swords and axes and shit.

Given how rife vigilante-ism still is in both native communities here though we aren't really the best placed to cast aspersions about that sort of behaviour!