Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Put the world to rights here (off-topic discussion)
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Gandalf the Red » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:30 pm

I think everyone has forgotten the art of reading.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:35 pm

peypea wrote:Categorising a religion or race of people because of a few extremists is disgusting.


No one has done that at any point in this thread. If people would actually read what me and Gandalf are saying instead of just responding with virtue signalling and accusations of tin foil hats you'd see we've got a problem with Islamists, not muslims in general or arabs/levantines/turks etc.

V-Man wrote:
Gandalf the Red wrote:My eyes are wide open. Everyone else is sleepwalking into a Muslim run totalitarian world state.


It's just clicked that you're satirising what an idiot on the internet sounds like and now I'm embarrassed because I thought you were seriously that out of touch with reality.

EDIT: words


Case in point. Do people really not think that the Global Caliphate is a real thing that millions of people around the world are working towards? Not just ISIS themselves either. The Saudi royals (America/UK's supposed allies) are the ones who wrote the salafi/wahabi doctrines that ISIS is formulated on, and are major financial supporters of them and the American Democrat elite who armed them. I doubt the Saudis would want the current Iraqi/Syrian ISIS leaders to be in charge but they're happy to let them do the dirty work in destroying Europe for now and swoop in later. Iran might be at war with ISIS but you can be damn sure if they ever completely defeated their Sunni neighbours they'd want a Shia-controlled global caliphate too. And even Turkey, our other "ally" and supposed "soft" Islamists are happy to play the same game as Saudi Arabia and the other peninsula nations. The only reason Erdogan only half supports ISIS is because the little neo-sultan wants the Global Caliphate to be based in Istanbul like the good old days of the Ottoman Empire. This isn't just "a few extremists", the majority of mainstream sunni muslims around the world, and most importantly the ones with power, are at the very least ambivalent towards ISIS and what they stand for.

peypea wrote:Have any of you ever been victimised because you were a certain race or nationality?


I was a "catholic" child living in the most heavily protestant/unionist/loyalist part of the country during the peace process. What do you think?
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby peypea » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:09 pm

Matty, I was genuinely asking because I didn't know if anyone had! Wasn't being a sarky know it all bitch.
You'll notice as well that I say I hope he's joking. It's difficult to read tone on the internet and I've had a very shit few days with depression so my judgement isn't as great as it could be.

The post that riled me was this :

Gandalf the Red wrote:My eyes are wide open. Everyone else is sleepwalking into a Muslim run totalitarian world state.

Do you really think these people want to live in peace and harmony? No. They want to destroy you and everything about you.

Why do you think we are having this conversation in the first place? It's not the Methodists who are going around killing people and making us have bag searches.


Not extremist run, or Islamist run. If I didn't understand something then by all means please make it clearer to me, like I said brain isn't in top notch atm.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:29 pm

peypea wrote:It's difficult to read tone on the internet


Well that's for sure! Sorry my response was a bit snappy Ania, but that always seems a silly question to me. I don't know anyone from Northern Ireland who hasn't to be honest. Your da's generation got the worst of it of course but even in my generation and for kids nowadays of a lower economic rung sectarianism is still a very real thing to deal with. No doubt your old man is glad he didn't raise you here.

Yeah I can see where people would read that post differently and see an implication that conflates all muslims with jihadism, my brain glossed over that reading it because I know Gandalf was talking specifically about a particular fundamentalist reading of Islam. I do think it's dangerous to assume though that extremism is either a minority opinion within Islam or that it is all that far removed from what many mainstream Sunnis believe.

P.S. I know you've probably got friends a lot closer to talk to about your problems with but if you ever want a chat or want some perspective from someone else who has depression you can always come to me.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Gandalf the Red » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:39 pm

peypea wrote:Matty, I was genuinely asking because I didn't know if anyone had! Wasn't being a sarky know it all bitch.
You'll notice as well that I say I hope he's joking. It's difficult to read tone on the internet and I've had a very shit few days with depression so my judgement isn't as great as it could be.

The post that riled me was this :

Gandalf the Red wrote:My eyes are wide open. Everyone else is sleepwalking into a Muslim run totalitarian world state.

Do you really think these people want to live in peace and harmony? No. They want to destroy you and everything about you.

Why do you think we are having this conversation in the first place? It's not the Methodists who are going around killing people and making us have bag searches.


Not extremist run, or Islamist run. If I didn't understand something then by all means please make it clearer to me, like I said brain isn't in top notch atm.


Well that's easy to explain.

If these guys get to realise their aims then all other Muslims would have to obey their doctrine or they will be killed. You only have to watch the news to see what they do to anyone that doesn't agree with them. There simply wouldn't be any moderate Islam. Or anyone else.

Have I ever faced racism. Yes. I used to live in Toxteth and anyone that thinks that all racism is white on others is very mistaken. Being told to move out of "our area" or having your house burnt down by a bunch of Somalis is not an option I take lightly.

I don't see any humour in this at all.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby keera_envenomed » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:18 am

You both seem to be basing these predictions of a Muslim controlled state on the idea that a good section of the 1.6 billion Muslims on the planet will be able to cooperate with each other, put aside historical grudges and be able to agree on a single interpretation of Islam that they will enforce upon people. Considering how riddled with infighting and division the Islamist groups are now, I don't give that much credence. It's the classic People's Front of Judea situation.

A caliphate may seem attractive to many but in practicality, it is unworkable.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:03 am

keera_envenomed wrote:A caliphate may seem attractive to many but in practicality, it is unworkable.


Well it existed within the last century so I don't see why it should be seen as impossible now- the Ottoman Caliphate was only dissolved in 1924 after all. Granted Jewish and Christian minorities lived rather peacefully as second class citizens (dhimmi) in the Ottoman Empire but Ottoman rule was built and maintained exactly the same way as all Islamic states throughout history have been- military conquest and suppression. I don't think co-operation and agreement will be a part of any attempt to rebuild a global caliphate, especially not with ISIS and their current sectarian cleansing of minority faiths in Iraq and Syria (Christians, Shi'ites, Yazidis, Mandaens, Druze...) If they win the Syrian Civil War it will likely result in a total genocide of the Alawite minority who dominate Al-Assad's secular Ba'athist regime as well.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Slev » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:17 am

I always find it intresting that the islamic world saw it's greatest and fastest expansion as a Sufi empire, while most who seek to establish a caphialate now are typically following some form of Shi'ah.

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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby keera_envenomed » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:38 am

Matty_the_Emo_Slayer wrote:
keera_envenomed wrote:A caliphate may seem attractive to many but in practicality, it is unworkable.


Well it existed within the last century so I don't see why it should be seen as impossible now- the Ottoman Caliphate was only dissolved in 1924 after all. Granted Jewish and Christian minorities lived rather peacefully as second class citizens (dhimmi) in the Ottoman Empire but Ottoman rule was built and maintained exactly the same way as all Islamic states throughout history have been- military conquest and suppression. I don't think co-operation and agreement will be a part of any attempt to rebuild a global caliphate, especially not with ISIS and their current sectarian cleansing of minority faiths in Iraq and Syria (Christians, Shi'ites, Yazidis, Mandaens, Druze...) If they win the Syrian Civil War it will likely result in a total genocide of the Alawite minority who dominate Al-Assad's secular Ba'athist regime as well.


Suppression and military conquest on a global scale still requires at least some degree of cooperation - how else do you maintain loyalty and discipline? ISIS are able to maintain this on a small scale but in order to expand, they will inevitably need to grow in size which will require gaining support from other groups who will have their own motivations and own desire for power. Divergent ideas will leave them unable to establish the mechanisms to achieve any level of suppression and military might they would need to be any more than a regional power.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:57 am

Slev wrote:I always find it intresting that the islamic world saw it's greatest and fastest expansion as a Sufi empire, while most who seek to establish a caphialate now are typically following some form of Shi'ah.


Well Sufism culturally impacted on the Islamic Golden Age but seeing as it was more of a hermetic/ascetic reaction to the military and political power of the Sunni caliph concerned with the "perfection of worship" (Ihsan) I don't think you could really call any point of Islamic history a "Sufi Empire." That would be like calling Israel a "Kabbalahic State" rather than Zionist, or calling the Catholic Church at the height of its political power a "Benedictine Empire" or "Augustine Empire."

Also the Twelve Branchers/Shi'ites might want to be the dominant faction of Islam (see the current Yemeni civil war) but the doctrine behind ISIS is an entirely Sunni one- specifically Salafism/Wahhabism.
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Slev » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:38 pm

fair point, although I understand that it was historically consifered a Sufi empire as the predominant doctrine in law was Sufism.

It's been a while since I studied that stuff, that said, and I am a natural blond :P

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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Matty_the_Emo_Slayer » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:06 pm

I suppose when you put it that way, Sufism did massively impact Islamic jurisprudence. I still reckon that would be like calling the political/military power of the medieval papacy Thomist because of the influence of Thomas Aquinas on ethics and natural law though. Seems like conflating the spiritual and worldly aspects if that makes sense?

That being said I've never formally studied this so I could be completely wrong. I probably only started seriously reading into Islamic history to sub-consciously justify my Islamophobia :lol:
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Nantha » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:21 pm

Props to the bloke who buys a Bloodstock ticket, travels all the way to Catton Hall, gets into an arena after having his bag searched and still manages to detonate an explosion to kill a few teenagers :lol:
Wacken I can understand, because Wacken is one of the biggest festivals in the world, and mainland Western Europe is not that safe at the mo, but Bloodstock banning bags? Really?

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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Gandalf the Red » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:09 pm

Nantha wrote:Props to the bloke who buys a Bloodstock ticket, travels all the way to Catton Hall, gets into an arena after having his bag searched and still manages to detonate an explosion to kill a few teenagers :lol:
Wacken I can understand, because Wacken is one of the biggest festivals in the world, and mainland Western Europe is not that safe at the mo, but Bloodstock banning bags? Really?


The problem is they attack soft targets, more likely with a knife rather than a bomb. Bloodstock is a soft target, just as every event in the UK is. But I guarantee that the local police will be keeping an eye on events.

We've got our fair share of religious nutters, probably just as many as France or Belgium. Doesn't anyone watch the news anymore? This one had hundreds of them supporting him yesterday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-37021385
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Re: Wacken ban bags, BOA seem to be considering it?

Postby Nantha » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:52 pm

I don't really watch or read the news anymore actually. It gives me a really jaded outlook on life and I'd rather be blissfully unaware of all the insane shit going on right now, then permanently angry all the time :(