What should happen with Brexit?

Put the world to rights here (off-topic discussion)

What should happen now regarding the UK's membership of the EU?

Remain in the EU after all
16
64%
Ask the EU to renegotiate
2
8%
Leave with Theresa May's deal
2
8%
Leave with no deal
5
20%
 
Total votes: 25

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What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Metalchemyst » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:30 pm

I've allowed re-voting due to the chaotic political situation.
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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Bizza » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:54 pm

Remain.

We've had 2 years of this fucking nonsense. Enough.

David Cameron should be fucking lynched for unleashing this shitpocalypse on the country.
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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby houston4044 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:15 am

Bizza wrote:David Cameron should be fucking lynched for unleashing this shitpocalypse on the country.


There's a hella long list of MP's who deserve a similar fate over their complicity in this on both sides of the dispatch box.

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Ghost » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:59 am

I always find it funny when people who voted leave say they didn't understand what they voted for. Basically just admitting they are a bit dumb ha ha. I guess because I work in logistics I always understood they chaos this would cause at borders and trading goods. The amount of documentation you have to provide when shipping outside the eu is a lot. So obviously everything will be super slow whilst systems are updated. It all just depends if you think it's worth it to end free movement of people and the other stuff some people desire.
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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Czech's Mate » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:52 pm

Bizza wrote:Remain.

We've had 2 years of this fucking nonsense. Enough.

David Cameron should be fucking lynched for unleashing this shitpocalypse on the country.

Hard to disagree with any of this
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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Black Wizard » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:49 pm

Bizza wrote:Remain.

We've had 2 years of this fucking nonsense. Enough.

David Cameron should be fucking lynched for unleashing this shitpocalypse on the country.

I agree with all this. David Cameron fucked up big time by calling the referendum. What a dumb idea that was. Everything was fine before that.

I have never liked the EU and did consider voting to leave but I expected all this mess to happen in the event of a leave vote, so voted to remain. There are genuine arguments in favour of leaving the EU that should be listened to but weighing those up against the chaos that is currently unfolding it just isn't worth it. I don't want to plan any trips to Europe until I know for certain what will happen with regards to visa-free travel. I don't even know if I'll have to get a new blue passport made by a company in France!

This mess hasn't done much to improve my opinion of the EU either. I've always seen it as a bloated, interfering organization which has far outgrown its original purpose. The Lisbon Treaty, which Gordon Brown signed without asking the country, has made it impossible to get out without being fleeced by the EU for many years afterwards. It's a bit like Paul McCartney's marriage to Heather Mills. There should be no reason why we can't leave the EU in an organized fashion and continue to have good trading and political relationships with the rest of Europe, but it doesn't seem possible after all.

As much as I'd prefer to throw all this Brexit crap in the bin and go back to the way things were, I am not comfortable with discarding the referendum result or having a second referendum. Both options feel somewhat undemocratic to me, and I don't want to go through the months of campaigning, lying and accusing yet again. We've had too much of that in the last five years. I expect we'll have yet another General Election next year and end up with a minority Labour government which will be blackmailed by the SNP. I can't see Jeremy Corbyn negotiating a better deal than Theresa May and the Labour party is equally as divided as the Conservative party. This mess will last for a few more years yet I am afraid. :rolleyes:

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby houston4044 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:47 pm

Black Wizard wrote:
As much as I'd prefer to throw all this Brexit crap in the bin and go back to the way things were, I am not comfortable with discarding the referendum result or having a second referendum. Both options feel somewhat undemocratic to me, and I don't want to go through the months of campaigning, lying and accusing yet again. We've had too much of that in the last five years. I expect we'll have yet another General Election next year and end up with a minority Labour government which will be blackmailed by the SNP. I can't see Jeremy Corbyn negotiating a better deal than Theresa May and the Labour party is equally as divided as the Conservative party. This mess will last for a few more years yet I am afraid. :rolleyes:


As hard as I try to understand this argument I just can't agree with it, though I accept plenty feel this way. Could you elaborate for me:

- Why is it undemocratic to ask again? Leave is still on the table and given every faction (for lack of better term) has to compromise with the deal on the table; isn't it better to have the choice to re-evaluate?

- Why do people want another GE? This is all due to Brexit, we've already had one due to Brexit and again we'll be asked to sign a blank cheque for a party over one issue while tacitly agreeing to the rest. Why not just go for the heart of the issue which is brexit via a referendum?

- Why are the EU the ones being unreasonable? We're the ones trying to leverage things to change the rules for our advantage. I'm not a Europhile by any stretch but why is it their fault that they won't (nor are they compelled to) meet our demands.

Don't mean this as an attack on you, but I can't see the logic in it and I want to understand better

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Black Wizard » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:16 pm

houston4044 wrote:As hard as I try to understand this argument I just can't agree with it, though I accept plenty feel this way. Could you elaborate for me:

- Why is it undemocratic to ask again? Leave is still on the table and given every faction (for lack of better term) has to compromise with the deal on the table; isn't it better to have the choice to re-evaluate?

The question has already been asked very recently and asking it again feels like saying to the country that they got it wrong the first time so you have to give us the result we want. A lot of people who wanted and still want Brexit to happen will be very unhappy if we do have a second referendum (with some justification in my opinion) and even more unhappy if the country decides to stay in the EU after all. I remember Ireland did this with a referendum on the Lisbon treaty and Nicola Sturgeon is constantly bleating about a second referendum for Scotland. However, I am certainly uncomfortable with, but not necessarily opposed, the idea of a second referendum. I've yet to make my mind up on it, and we don't even know if we would be asked to vote on the deal or on Brexit.

Why do people want another GE? This is all due to Brexit, we've already had one due to Brexit and again we'll be asked to sign a blank cheque for a party over one issue while tacitly agreeing to the rest. Why not just go for the heart of the issue which is brexit via a referendum?

Jeremy Corbyn wants another general election because he reckons he can negotiate a better deal than Theresa May did, which I am skeptical of. I think she's tried to be quite pragmatic over the last few months and is probably right about this being the best deal possible. The SNP probably want another general election because they'd like to take back all the seats the Tories won from them last year and wipe the Tories off the map in Scotland again. The SNP will hedge their bets on the 66-33 result in favour of Remain and hope that the people who voted Conservative last year will have lost faith and go back to SNP, but the rural regions that now have Tory MPs in Scotland were actually quite strongly in favour of Leave due to concerns about the Common Agricultural and Fisheries Policies.

Why are the EU the ones being unreasonable? We're the ones trying to leverage things to change the rules for our advantage. I'm not a Europhile by any stretch but why is it their fault that they won't (nor are they compelled to) meet our demands.

I reckon the EU are being reasonable and pragmatic with negotiations. I meant that the rules governing entering and leaving the EU are so insanely complex that any country who wants to leave is fucked. Obviously nobody thought that any member state would actually want to leave, but it seems crazy to me that the Lisbon Treaty was signed with this knowledge.

Don't mean this as an attack on you, but I can't see the logic in it and I want to understand better

No problems mate, it wasn't taken as an attack. I don't really understand it all myself anyway! :lol:

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby houston4044 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:01 pm

Black Wizard wrote:A lot of people who wanted and still want Brexit to happen will be very unhappy if we do have a second referendum (with some justification in my opinion) and even more unhappy if the country decides to stay in the EU after all. However, I am certainly uncomfortable with, but not necessarily opposed, the idea of a second referendum. I've yet to make my mind up on it, and we don't even know if we would be asked to vote on the deal or on Brexit.


What makes you opposed to a second referendum over a GE? Given the GE is going to revolve (again) around Brexit surely they'd both be uncomfortable?

Cart before the horse on the last bit, parliament would have to vote through the second referendum before the question on the ballot is decided. If it came to pass, would you prefer a deal/no deal ballot or one with remain on it?

Black Wizard wrote:No problems mate, it wasn't taken as an attack. I don't really understand it all myself anyway! :lol:


Given some of the reactions I've had/witnessed when the topic has been brought up I thought I'd be up front with it :lol:

Thanks for the insight though; it's good to be able to chat about it without it turning into a slagging match :yes:

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Powerslave » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:35 pm

even though i was a staunch remainer, i wasn't in favour of a re-reun of the referendum as you can't just keep running these things until you get the result you want.
however, a final vote on it once it's clear exactly what leaving will involve should happen. people voted initially on a theory, they might see it differently when they see the reality.
that being said, i work in Stoke and the majority of people i work with are the kind of idiots who think leaving the EU = fewer muslims and there's absolutely no arguing with that level of stupidity, so the turkeys will continue to vote for Christmas unfortunately.

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Metalchemyst » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:14 pm

Bizza wrote:David Cameron should be fucking lynched for unleashing this shitpocalypse on the country.
It was right to have a referendum given how much the EEC/EC/EU has changed since the last vote. What Cameron should have made clear was that the ref. was advisory and that it would have taken at least a 55% leave majority for any change to be seriously considered - similar to how many organisations require a 2/3 vote of members to change their constitutions. We don't know how to handle referendums in this country.

Given what's happened, I think May's deal is a fairly good reflection of the overall vote and we should go with it. If we stay in the EU, the tension about immigration might increase. I know leaving the EU doesn't solve that problem but it would release some pressure for a while.
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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Methuen » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:12 pm

Leave in some way - Not May's deal, which is an horrific fudge by a professional politician so far out of her depth it's kind of funny. Get in some private sector lawyers, advisors, & merger men to sort it out. The EU sent professionals on their side - the UK sent the kind of people that take Twitter feeds and Bake Off seriously.

My reasoning -

Even skim reading the text of the 'deal', and of other propositions around things like security, finance, Poland and Hungary coming out of the EU at the moment, it's clear that Brexit is one thing amongst others throwing an almighty spanner in the operation of the holy federal project. They aren't used to discontent being more than UKIP MEPs behaving like children - The Polish and Hungarian governments actually taking sovereign action locally, the whole Brexit circus, the Italians thumbing their noses and ignoring instructions - it does appear to have come as a bit of a shock to those in the Brussels bubble.

Thus, the EU are lashing out as an institution - threatening / attempting to sanction 'member' states ? Proposing the kind of terms in an agreement with the UK that a beggar would sniff at ? The treatment of Greece is another example of how an attempt to deviate causes the edifice great agitation. Taking sovereign actions locally, or even proposing them, should not result in the EU trying to punish 'members'. It is sold as a trade / security partnership between nations. It is not behaving like that in the last few years.

Leave, and negotiate a trade arrangement over the next few years. But for God's sake don't send political pole climbers. Conscript some CEOs, QCs, M&A people.
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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Black Wizard » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:00 pm

houston4044 wrote:What makes you opposed to a second referendum over a GE? Given the GE is going to revolve (again) around Brexit surely they'd both be uncomfortable?

I am more opposed to another General Election. The country doesn't need more upheaval and Labour won't be able to do a better job. I am unconvinced about a second referendum, but not completely opposed to one.

If it came to pass, would you prefer a deal/no deal ballot or one with remain on it?

I haven't a clue what I'd want to see on a hypothetical second referendum ballot sheet! :lol: Maybe we should get Noel involved?

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Given some of the reactions I've had/witnessed when the topic has been brought up I thought I'd be up front with it :lol:


Thanks for the insight though; it's good to be able to chat about it without it turning into a slagging match :yes:

Remoaner! :x

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Black Wizard » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:12 pm

Powerslave wrote:that being said, i work in Stoke and the majority of people i work with are the kind of idiots who think leaving the EU = fewer muslims and there's absolutely no arguing with that level of stupidity, so the turkeys will continue to vote for Christmas unfortunately.

Less Polish and Romanian people perhaps, so Subway, Costa, Starbucks and Greggs will be fucked. The Muslims are coming from countries we've invaded or bombed with the US over the last 15-20 years.

Metalchemyst wrote:It was right to have a referendum given how much the EEC/EC/EU has changed since the last vote

This is fine. I agree that the country's relationship should be open to periodic reassessment, particularly as most of the electorate didn't get to decide the first time around. However, it would have been preferable if David Cameron had made an effort to speak to the EU about what the consequences of leaving would be so that the country would have been able to make a more informed decision. The referendum happened too soon in my opinion. There should have been more time to find the facts first.

Methuen wrote:Leave in some way - Not May's deal, which is an horrific fudge by a professional politician so far out of her depth it's kind of funny. Get in some private sector lawyers, advisors, & merger men to sort it out. The EU sent professionals on their side - the UK sent the kind of people that take Twitter feeds and Bake Off seriously.

My reasoning -

Even skim reading the text of the 'deal', and of other propositions around things like security, finance, Poland and Hungary coming out of the EU at the moment, it's clear that Brexit is one thing amongst others throwing an almighty spanner in the operation of the holy federal project. They aren't used to discontent being more than UKIP MEPs behaving like children - The Polish and Hungarian governments actually taking sovereign action locally, the whole Brexit circus, the Italians thumbing their noses and ignoring instructions - it does appear to have come as a bit of a shock to those in the Brussels bubble.

Thus, the EU are lashing out as an institution - threatening / attempting to sanction 'member' states ? Proposing the kind of terms in an agreement with the UK that a beggar would sniff at ? The treatment of Greece is another example of how an attempt to deviate causes the edifice great agitation. Taking sovereign actions locally, or even proposing them, should not result in the EU trying to punish 'members'. It is sold as a trade / security partnership between nations. It is not behaving like that in the last few years.

Leave, and negotiate a trade arrangement over the next few years. But for God's sake don't send political pole climbers. Conscript some CEOs, QCs, M&A people.

I agree with much of what you've said here. Career politicians probably weren't the best people to do this, and now we're on our third Brexit Secretary. :rolleyes: Maybe the PM should have read a book by a good friend of hers?

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It was basically a dumb idea to enter a contract that didn't have a get out clause. Even Lionel Messi could theoretically leave Barcelona, but any country that leaves the EU will be fleeced.

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Re: What should happen with Brexit?

Postby Methuen » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:24 pm

Black Wizard wrote:
Metalchemyst wrote:It was right to have a referendum given how much the EEC/EC/EU has changed since the last vote

This is fine. I agree that the country's relationship should be open to periodic reassessment, particularly as most of the electorate didn't get to decide the first time around. However, it would have been preferable if David Cameron had made an effort to speak to the EU about what the consequences of leaving would be so that the country would have been able to make a more informed decision. The referendum happened too soon in my opinion. There should have been more time to find the facts first.


I agree with that - if he'd waited a year, rather than going "oh shit, Nigel Farage is coming for me", we might be in a better place.

Black Wizard wrote:It was basically a dumb idea to enter a contract that didn't have a get out clause. Even Lionel Messi could theoretically leave Barcelona, but any country that leaves the EU will be fleeced.


Sticking with the football metaphor - I've been disgusting my West Ham / Everton / nervous Man U supporting colleagues by suggesting that we get Big Sam into No. 10 to sort it all out...
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