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Here's a question for you:

As it's confirmed that we can withdraw Article 50 penalty free, as few find May's deal any good; how would people feel about revoking art 50, actually thinking up a decent negotiating strategy before restarting the process afresh?

Only ask as it's near universally held to be a bad deal and that we've negotiated badly; would people accept that ^ scenario?

Betrayal of Brexit march around 2-3 thousand/ counter protest 8-9 thousand/ People's vote march 700 thousand

So this talk of leavers coming out on the street at the idea of a second referendum is backwards, it'll be the remainers coming out on the streets if they're denied democracy. Think that argument can be discarded now

Cancelled - can't actually be bothered arguing about Brexit !

Methuen wrote:The "longest Waitrose queue in history" was hardly burning cars, though. Either way, the doom-mongering predictions of riots won't happen - anyone who voted leave is expecting to have that result shafted by the politicians. The political class and their mates don't want Brexit to happen, and so it won't if they've got even an ounce of ability.

What democracy are remain voters being denied, in your opinion ? All I've heard is variations on "I don't like the result, so I want to go again" for two years; granted, it's getting more sophisticated now - "oh look at the terrible deal that we have, we must have another vote / general election to get out of this...". If that's democracy, we're in the shit the next time a general election result doesn't return a LibDem-Green / Labour government I suppose. Imagine five years of moaning and not-too-subtle attempts to undermine the legitimacy of the government.

Finally, I get that those people are sore, I truly do sympathise - I remember Tony Blair winning his final two elections on the trot, despite everything - but dressing up a campaign directed by Peter Mandelson and chums (Open Britain / Peope's Vote) as some kind of crusade against the elite is rubbish, and dishonest rubbish from the organisers.

I would say it's not simply a case of people not liking the result and trying to get it changed after the fact (though, there is that too).

I would say it is more to do with other points:
1. The bus / the lies / etc
2. People not fully realising what they were voting for and seemingly changing their mind after.
3. Upon finding out what the reality of leaving the EU entails (either a hard Brexit, which few want or a half in/out comprimise that May has put forward as her deal), some have decided that staying in would be better than the alternatives.

Haldamir319 wrote:

Methuen wrote:.

I would say it's not simply a case of people not liking the result and trying to get it changed after the fact (though, there is that too).

I would say it is more to do with other points:
1. The bus / the lies / etc
2. People not fully realising what they were voting for and seemingly changing their mind after.
3. Upon finding out what the reality of leaving the EU entails (either a hard Brexit, which few want or a half in/out comprimise that May has put forward as her deal), some have decided that staying in would be better than the alternatives.

Damn, too slow on the retraction

My only view on that line of reasoning is that the Osbourne / Cameron machine told the voters that Leave were lying / it'd be global chaos / the EU would tell us to get lost. A related problem with the whole situation is the total lack of credibility in our political establishment - people didn't believe the Remain project, and a good few don't believe it now. This stems from politicians lying as a rule of thumb, on any topic, rather than being Brexit-specific. That a widely distrusted PM / Chancellor / Home Sec were presenting these facts didn't help one bit.

I'd like a general election for preference - put the whole show back to a public poll.
That way we should end up with a government that matches their own Brexit position, instead of the horrible fudge we have now of Remain campaigners running Brexit.

Methuen wrote:Damn, too slow on the retraction

I know the feeling.

houston4044 wrote:Here's a question for you:As it's confirmed that we can withdraw Article 50 penalty free, as few find May's deal any good; how would people feel about revoking art 50, actually thinking up a decent negotiating strategy before restarting the process afresh?

I can't see the EU wanting to start again. They'll just say "Same deal as before."


There are a few factors behind all this chaos:

* Voters split pretty much 50/50 on the issue with extremists on both sides
* The referendum having been mishandled
* Selfish career politicians not putting the national interest first
* The EU being very stubborn, like it's the Vatican
* The Irish border issue complicating things (but overblown IMO)

Quite a storm, and it's looking like only another ref. will solve things. But it would have to be done in an unbiased way, which is a bit tricky.

As I see, the problem with a second referendum is: what would the result give? if it was 52/48 last time, and this mess is the result, what would be required to be to get anyone out of it? Would a significant number swap to the other side to give an even more significant result, if a few did, and it was the same split the other way then nothing changes - the result still has millions of people on the other side who would want their say, and more unrest as they had the winning vote before. If the stumbling block is the Irish border, then Leave could win by 99/1 and it still wouldn't stop that being a problem.

im a hard-core remainer but i object the idea of another referendum. it would be a mockery of democracy. the people have spoken. i voted remain and lost. leave the eu, suffer the consequences, wait about 10 years and then have another vote on wether to rejoin.

Metalchemyst wrote:

houston4044 wrote:Here's a question for you:As it's confirmed that we can withdraw Article 50 penalty free, as few find May's deal any good; how would people feel about revoking art 50, actually thinking up a decent negotiating strategy before restarting the process afresh?

I can't see the EU wanting to start again. They'll just say "Same deal as before."

I imagine by the time a fresh one was held there would be major political changes, May would certainly be gone and even possibly another general election. At that point whoever is negotiating may have different goals so different deal.

someone else wrote: If the stumbling block is the Irish border, then Leave could win by 99/1 and it still wouldn't stop that being a problem.

If it was a 3 choice question (or 2 stage ballot) and both deal and no deal are offered as options then you effectively solve the problem. If No Deal win then it's a hard border solution (although the ramifications for the Good Friday agreement rear up) and if it's deal then it's border checks within the Britain and N. Ireland. For the average voter though it's problem solved, it'll be up to the government to deal with the legal detail.

eyesore wrote:im a hard-core remainer but i object the idea of another referendum. it would be a mockery of democracy. the people have spoken. i voted remain and lost. leave the eu, suffer the consequences, wait about 10 years and then have another vote on wether to rejoin.

2nd referendum or not, think the ship sailed on our democracy being made a mockery of

I think a 2nd referendum is the only effective way out of the log jam. If you go for another general election it doesn't solve the issue as both major parties are split into different factions. How do you effectively support and vote for Deal/no deal/remain by voting for one party? Labour won't commit to one in the hope of appealing to the most people, the Tories won't be able to stand behind any one option; So effectively you end up in the same position.

People would then get what they voted for, rather now where a concept that could mean nearly anything to anyone is somehow endorsed yet would piss more people off as it'd please no one.

houston4044 wrote:If it was a 3 choice question (or 2 stage ballot) and both deal and no deal are offered as options then you effectively solve the problem.

A three choice question wouldn't work as you can't go with a 34% victory in a referendum. A two-stage ballot might be OK with the first question being something like "Do you think the United Kingdom should accept the withdrawal agreement for leaving the European Union: Yes or No?" then the second question something like "If the withdrawal agreement for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union is rejected do you think the United Kingdom should remain in the European Union: Yes or No?".

Black Wizard wrote:

houston4044 wrote:If it was a 3 choice question (or 2 stage ballot) and both deal and no deal are offered as options then you effectively solve the problem.

A three choice question wouldn't work as you can't go with a 34% victory in a referendum. A two-stage ballot might be OK with the first question being something like "Do you think the United Kingdom should accept the withdrawal agreement for leaving the European Union: Yes or No?" then the second question something like "If the withdrawal agreement for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union is rejected do you think the United Kingdom should remain in the European Union: Yes or No?".

Only problem with that is is that it doesn't have an option for a "no deal/WTO" Brexit, which as much as I disagree with it should be an option in some form.

"do you think the UK should accept the withdrawal agreement yes/no" If no, "do you think the UK should remain or leave with no deal remain/no deal"

something like that anyway

eyesore wrote:im a hard-core remainer but i object the idea of another referendum. it would be a mockery of democracy. the people have spoken. i voted remain and lost. leave the eu, suffer the consequences, wait about 10 years and then have another vote on wether to rejoin.

I could live with that. But it assumes the EU would let us back.

An article in the Spectator says we made a big mistake triggering Article 50 so soon without having a proper negotiating strategy.

Now we can argue about what the MEP votes mean

Aww this thread just made me wonder what happened to Houston4044

Brexit has significantly affected Irish-British freight traffic. The operators had to change the route. The Irish government reports a deterioration in trade relations with the UK after the state left the European Union. One item remained unchanged - the ability to generate customs invoices online on supercmr.com. (For those who don't know what is a cmr document - it is a consignment note with a standard set of transport and liability conditions, which replaces individual businesses' terms and conditions.) The number of mutual cargo shipments with the former EU member decreased in favor of the rest of Europe. The most significant consequence was the abandonment of the once faster route, which allowed carriers to use a short sea crossing between Dublin and Holyhead in Wales, pass through the UK, and then use another ferry to get to mainland Europe.