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Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:01 am
by mathewxentrix88
Gandalf the Red wrote:I think it's inevitable seeing how much they've been hyping them on the FB page.

I also notice they are doing a #ST FOR BOA thing now. Just try and book them if you want them. Doing all this nonsense makes you look bad at your job.

Saw that about Suicidal Tendencies.If they want to book them make them an offer,they either accept or they don't.Embarrassing.
I've got a funny feeling this year they are struggling already for bands-otherwise why these weird tactics with J.P and S.T???

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:29 pm
by houston4044
http://teamrock.com/news/2016-09-21/suicidal-tendencies-are-nothing-in-england-says-mike-muir

Funny thing is, if you read that article by the sounds of it ST probably won't hardball negotiations as they want to play England and seem pretty open as to in what capacity (e.g. own shows or a festival). Muir also references how at Download they always play the small stages to the older crowd, well I imagine they'd play the main stage at BOA although the age thing is debatable. Add that onto JP and it really doesn't sound like BOA have good booking skills...

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:15 pm
by cthulhu
A few things from various posts in the last 7 pages:
1. We shouldn't presume tours are the only contractual elements to consider there are other festivals who will also have booked bands and may or may not have announced them yet thus the three parties will have to agree a date for announcement (see Machine Head's announcement in 2012).
2. I saw someone state Marilyn Manson was contracted for £1,000,000. This is categorically not going to be true, even Manson isn't deluded enough to ask for that and Alt Fest aren't dumb enough to offer it. £100,000 seems plausible maybe but frankly still very high.
3. As it relates to Priest from what I understand the issue is that they're rarely available to perform since they're in semi-retirement at this point. The money issue is possible too but the thing to remember is that a bands value is never determined by the band alone but by what the industry will offer. If Download will happily pay £100,000 for a band for instance and Bloodstock only offer £50,000 would you like to guess which figure represents the bands value for a single date in the UK? Realistically playing special guest slot for more money at Download is a better business decision and a more worthwhile slot than playing a headline set for less people for less money. Bands are businesses this needs to be understood by more people and Bloodstock is also a business Bloodstock can't offer more than they can budget and Priest won't devalue themselves needlessly.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:22 pm
by cthulhu
Equally bands may wish to avoid announcements of dates like this until a particular date if they have an upcoming release on the table and wish to make it part of the marketing plan.

...and then there's always the slightly paranoid concern that the headliners aren't good enough so they've stalled till they didn't have a field of people who may be unconvinced and could offer more bands in a shorter time frame to simultaneously attract enough of the crowd they target at once and hence balance the feedback they see from social media.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:57 pm
by Gandalf the Red
I wish people wouldn't post figures without knowing how much bands actually cost.

Marilyn Manson's deposit was over £100,000. That's the confirmation deposit to show the organisers had intent to proceed. The actually fee was closer to the £1M stated. The fact the festival had only budgeted for £800,000 shows how out of touch people are with costs. You could probably find all the costings as I believe it actually went to court.

£100,000 wouldn't get you an established mid afternoon band at a festival. Yes, they charge less when they play their own gigs. But then they have total control over budgets and merchandise sales.

Who would charge less when it's your major stream of income?

You get paid say £100,000.
Then deduct money for people that need paying such as sound engineers and crew.
Then deduct expenses.
Then split the rest between band members.
You're lucky to get £10,000 each.

Which is why it pisses me off when people start calling bands greedy when they start waving mythical stories about bands such as Manowar and Scorpions asking for too much money.

In reality they are making less than a teacher.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:45 pm
by cthulhu
Gandalf the Red wrote:I wish people wouldn't post figures without knowing how much bands actually cost.

Marilyn Manson's deposit was over £100,000. That's the confirmation deposit to show the organisers had intent to proceed. The actually fee was closer to the £1M stated. The fact the festival had only budgeted for £800,000 shows how out of touch people are with costs. You could probably find all the costings as I believe it actually went to court.

£100,000 wouldn't get you an established mid afternoon band at a festival. Yes, they charge less when they play their own gigs. But then they have total control over budgets and merchandise sales.

Who would charge less when it's your major stream of income?

You get paid say £100,000.
Then deduct money for people that need paying such as sound engineers and crew.
Then deduct expenses.
Then split the rest between band members.
You're lucky to get £10,000 each.

Which is why it pisses me off when people start calling bands greedy when they start waving mythical stories about bands such as Manowar and Scorpions asking for too much money.

In reality they are making less than a teacher.


Respectfully Gandalf the entire festival budget ran up to about £1.7m which they couldn't raise this figure is fairly well published so if Manson was remotely close to the £1m you suggest that would suggest that just over 700,000 was spent on booking the remaining 100+ bands (including Cradle of Filth, Arch Enemy, The Cult, Paradise Lost, God Seed and Satyricon). If we then include your idea that a band who are big enough to play middle of the day main stage at BoA costs at least £100,000 to book then after my list up there alone that suggests that not only did nearly every other band on the bill play for free but that the PA, toilets, stalls, security and staging was all free and that the land was also donated to the festival for use.

Maybe on a full tour you could expect to make that degree of money but realistically for a single show we're talking £10,000s at best not £100,000s for a main stage band and certainly not for one that isn't a large headliner. Manson isn't going to be anywhere near £1,000,000 he'd never be booked ever again.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:55 pm
by cthulhu
But speaking as a sound engineer who has worked for some of the bands who have played Bloodstock I totally agree that people very clearly do not appreciate the costs involved. Bands like Manowar and such are an unfortunate case. If my band were worth £10,000 in the UK, £10,000 in Spain and £10,000 in Germany but I couldn't get more than £5,000 to play a French date what's my incentive to do one really? Manowar ask for too much to play the UK but frankly if the demand doesn't match their requirement that's just how it is and I assure you if the industry could expect to make a profit here on the bands performance someone would be offering it.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:24 pm
by Gandalf the Red
cthulhu wrote:
Respectfully Gandalf the entire festival budget ran up to about £1.7m which they couldn't raise this figure is fairly well published so if Manson was remotely close to the £1m you suggest that would suggest that just over 700,000 was spent on booking the remaining 100+ bands (including Cradle of Filth, Arch Enemy, The Cult, Paradise Lost, God Seed and Satyricon). If we then include your idea that a band who are big enough to play middle of the day main stage at BoA costs at least £100,000 to book then after my list up there alone that suggests that not only did nearly every other band on the bill play for free but that the PA, toilets, stalls, security and staging was all free and that the land was also donated to the festival for use.

Maybe on a full tour you could expect to make that degree of money but realistically for a single show we're talking £10,000s at best not £100,000s for a main stage band and certainly not for one that isn't a large headliner. Manson isn't going to be anywhere near £1,000,000 he'd never be booked ever again.


Why do you think the festival failed and thousands of people were ripped off? All the details are out there somewhere on the internet.

For example Deli Kate lost thousands. Not to mention the thousands of fans that put hundreds in to the crowdfunding.

I would think that the other bands were equally ripped off, but because they may not have the management then they were screwed, or they took it on the chin.

Proper established festivals run on monopoly money just like businesses. You may say that it's costing £XXXXXXX but in reality your paying XYZ £XXXXX whilst ABC are paying you £XXXXXX. It's not real money and if you have the ability to cover it then you don't even have to have money. As long as you don't mess up then everything is fine.

I drink with quite a few musicians. And yes, it is £100,000s rather than £10,000s. Would you travel half way around the world to play for £2,000 if you were in a major band? Most of them wouldn't get out of bed for that. That's why they all get onto the festival circuit as it's easy money.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:06 pm
by metalicbear
Marily Manson did not ask for £1m, I think you've got your facts completely wrong. Alt fests entire budget for bands was only 800k. However he did ask for his payment up front vefore playing which was apparently just over 100k.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:14 pm
by cthulhu
Gandalf the Red wrote:Why do you think the festival failed and thousands of people were ripped off? All the details are out there somewhere on the internet.

Yeah it was poorly run absolutely no question about it but not to the tune you suggest. I haven't been able to find any of these details beyond what news sites report (which doesn't suggest your figures are accurate) but if you know where I can find the actual figures I'd be interested in reading them.

For example Deli Kate lost thousands. Not to mention the thousands of fans that put hundreds in to the crowdfunding.

I don't doubt this at all.

Proper established festivals run on monopoly money just like businesses. You may say that it's costing £XXXXXXX but in reality your paying XYZ £XXXXX whilst ABC are paying you £XXXXXX. It's not real money and if you have the ability to cover it then you don't even have to have money. As long as you don't mess up then everything is fine.

I'm aware of how booking events is done and how its regulated financially but what that doesn't account for is projections of value and price range accordance. You can't convince people to invest in a festival without having the projections to support your enterprise.

The thing you're not acknowledging is that you stated any band who could do mid bloodstock sized main stage billing asks for 100,000s. Given that the festival needed 3,000 more tickets to break even and had sold 7,600 at £145 each that would suggest that only 7 bands could be paid (including the alleged £1,000,000 for Manson alone) 173 bands, the vendors, PA, engineers, riggers, staging, fencing, toilets, cleaners etc etc would have to have done their part for free.

I drink with quite a few musicians. And yes, it is £100,000s rather than £10,000s. Would you travel half way around the world to play for £2,000 if you were in a major band? Most of them wouldn't get out of bed for that. That's why they all get onto the festival circuit as it's easy money.

I've worked for bands like Amon Amarth, Steve Harris of Iron Maiden, Vader, Hate, Exodus, Decapitated, Belphegor, Marduk and Nile. I'm friends with numerous promoters who have booked many of these bands and others and I can promise you now those guys are not making hundreds of thousands per show even on their own headline shows. Yes £2,000 is not worth the effort on single dates however it's not uncommon for bands to make that figure or less when touring on individual dates of a tour. The festival circuit is really no easier than doing your own headline tour in fact it's a bit more awkward given the time between performances is typically either far too close together or too far apart (you only make money when you play a show so days between you make a loss).

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:39 pm
by Gandalf the Red
I'm talking £100,000 per band not individual.

That's festival dates, not a bands own tour dates. On their own tour they get to make money on merchandise, they don't at festivals where they get a slice. The reason why most bands don't bother bringing any.

The management takes a wedge, the record company takes a slice, transport, equipment (if you're flying then most of it will be hired), people, etc. Now divide the remainder between four or five individuals. You're not getting much more than a few thousand each. But it still costs about £100,000 for a major band at a festival.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:01 am
by Gandalf the Red
As for Altfest, I can't find all the legal details online anymore, they have probably been deleted.

But you've got to realise that the majority of those bands wouldn't have been getting paid anyway. The rest would probably only get a token fee.

The bands that are Academy sized probably would have been on decent money. So probably about twenty bands were getting paid more than expenses. I don't think The Cult come cheap seeing as they were charging nearly £50 a ticket last time they played.

It was doomed before it started. It's a case of "Let's write a wish list and book those bands. It doesn't matter if we've got no money". :lol:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-Fest

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:54 am
by houston4044
metalicbear wrote:Marily Manson did not ask for £1m, I think you've got your facts completely wrong. Alt fests entire budget for bands was only 800k. However he did ask for his payment up front vefore playing which was apparently just over 100k.


I believe it eventually transpired that he wanted a substantially increased fee (I believe it turned out the 100K was just the cancellation fee) so as to choose to headline a new unknown and "non-traditionally" run festival; after the likes of Sonisphere, Hevy etc going to the wall I imagine a huge payday was probably all that was going to make him to choose Alt-Fest over a smaller slot at a larger festival or his own tour.

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:56 am
by houston4044
Speaking of Alt-Fest, looking at the line up, that Friday was absolutely stacked :lol:

Re: Next Announcement

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:05 am
by Baldy77
So......Halloween for some announcements then?

I had a ticket to Alt Fest, was very much looking forward to it! Still got refunded easily so its one for the history books