Vicky's Gone Then

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Jay1993
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Jay1993 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 pm

north sea storm wrote:That's because they're trying to be something they aren't.


The point is you wouldn't know if someone was trans or not anyway. If you ever happened to meet a trans man who's on hormones and had surgery, they'd have a masculine figure, masculine face shape and facial hair etc. so you literally wouldn't have a clue.

Transgender people are doing the opposite of "pretending to be something they're not". They've known who they are their whole lives and are undertaking hormone therapy etc. so that their physical appearance aligns with their true identity.

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Green Man III
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Green Man III » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:47 pm

I'm with Jay1993 on this. I understand a lifetime of pretending to be something and having that something becoming real and this has nothing to do with being transgender. But my transgender friend understood what I was going through and she was there for me when I needed a friend and having known her when she was physically a man I can understand how it may be hard for people to grasp this but if you care about your fellow human-being then you would try to open your mind just a little bit so as to not be so insensitive. There is probably something in everybody's life where they may feel horribly misunderstood. This is one of those things.


Anyway, this is a good conversation but a general conversation. I'd much rather see a new band announcement.

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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Jay1993 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:47 am

Green Man III wrote:I'm with Jay1993 on this. I understand a lifetime of pretending to be something and having that something becoming real and this has nothing to do with being transgender. But my transgender friend understood what I was going through and she was there for me when I needed a friend and having known her when she was physically a man I can understand how it may be hard for people to grasp this but if you care about your fellow human-being then you would try to open your mind just a little bit so as to not be so insensitive. There is probably something in everybody's life where they may feel horribly misunderstood. This is one of those things.


Anyway, this is a good conversation but a general conversation. I'd much rather see a new band announcement.


Band announcement on Halloween according to Facebook :yes:

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Ghost
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Ghost » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:57 pm

If King810 appear on the bill then we'll know Vicky is still in charge lol
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Green Man III
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Green Man III » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:24 pm

north sea storm wrote:That's because they're trying to be something they aren't.


I say that unless you've voluntarily had your dick chopped off, you are not in the position to make this comment.

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Noodle
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Noodle » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:51 pm

It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby metaldinosaur » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:13 am

Noodle wrote:It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"


You potentially lose a lot. There are some very good reasons to question this 'respect' imo. (The deconstruction of certainty and its social consequence would be my main approach). But as ever, when the societal perception has shifted so far in the direction of openness/'acceptance', it has to be meticulously unpicking to uncover it. The self evidenced of 'doing the tight thing' is tanted by mass conformity, so scrutiny and rigor must be applied to the opposing view to reveal justification. In short: the (mean average) social power behind trans identity is crazy powerful - too powerful... and that's not good.

It doesn't mean there aren't reasons to be kind to the individual, there are, which is why I do it, but its appears that any other way of thinking is not allowed at the moment. If Vicky had stood her ground, it could well have been the end of bloodstock... that level of power is crazy. And that doesn't feel right to me.
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby bloodofthekings » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:55 am

metaldinosaur wrote:
Noodle wrote:It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"


You potentially lose a lot. There are some very good reasons to question this 'respect' imo. (The deconstruction of certainty and its social consequence would be my main approach). But as ever, when the societal perception has shifted so far in the direction of openness/'acceptance', it has to be meticulously unpicking to uncover it. The self evidenced of 'doing the tight thing' is tanted by mass conformity, so scrutiny and rigor must be applied to the opposing view to reveal justification. In short: the (mean average) social power behind trans identity is crazy powerful - too powerful... and that's not good.

It doesn't mean there aren't reasons to be kind to the individual, there are, which is why I do it, but its appears that any other way of thinking is not allowed at the moment. If Vicky had stood her ground, it could well have been the end of bloodstock... that level of power is crazy. And that doesn't feel right to me.


There is a massive difference though between the content of your posts on this subject to the petulant rant that Vicky posted. Even though I don't agree with everything you've said on this, you're clearly putting thought into your posts and taking time to articulate them properly.
Vicky didn't do that - without provocation she posted a childish tantrum of a tweet and then tried to play the victim. It didn't have any thought put into it and seemed to be nothing more than someone trying to stir shit for the sake of it and then not being able to handle the backlash, which as someone who is so active on social media, she should have seen coming a mile off.
To say that is something that Vicky could have "stood her ground" on is giving too much credit to what was nothing more than an unnecessary, angry tweet

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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby metaldinosaur » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:58 pm

bloodofthekings wrote:
metaldinosaur wrote:
Noodle wrote:It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"


You potentially lose a lot. There are some very good reasons to question this 'respect' imo. (The deconstruction of certainty and its social consequence would be my main approach). But as ever, when the societal perception has shifted so far in the direction of openness/'acceptance', it has to be meticulously unpicking to uncover it. The self evidenced of 'doing the tight thing' is tanted by mass conformity, so scrutiny and rigor must be applied to the opposing view to reveal justification. In short: the (mean average) social power behind trans identity is crazy powerful - too powerful... and that's not good.

It doesn't mean there aren't reasons to be kind to the individual, there are, which is why I do it, but its appears that any other way of thinking is not allowed at the moment. If Vicky had stood her ground, it could well have been the end of bloodstock... that level of power is crazy. And that doesn't feel right to me.


There is a massive difference though between the content of your posts on this subject to the petulant rant that Vicky posted. Even though I don't agree with everything you've said on this, you're clearly putting thought into your posts and taking time to articulate them properly.
Vicky didn't do that - without provocation she posted a childish tantrum of a tweet and then tried to play the victim. It didn't have any thought put into it and seemed to be nothing more than someone trying to stir shit for the sake of it and then not being able to handle the backlash, which as someone who is so active on social media, she should have seen coming a mile off.
To say that is something that Vicky could have "stood her ground" on is giving too much credit to what was nothing more than an unnecessary, angry tweet


Well... I guess your right. Ha!

I do think what she did/said was not the way to go. Not at all.

But here is the thing: Vicky is most likely not capable enough with language, emotionally dextrous enough for deep empathetic reasoning; or cognitively capable enough around social mechanics/perceptions to articulate herself properly. She is not alone either, she is in fact representative of most people really, on all sides of the debate. Indeed, there are not many people on the 'pro-trans side' who possess more eloquence and insight than Vicky, but they do have the massive weight of social concensus behind them... so it doesn't, for them, matter. With the concensus behind you, you can be as blunt and as reactionary and even as mean as you like, because you're righteousness is ordained by populist belief. Vicky may well have done all things you said, but (if I am to draw this out a little on a string) the feeling behind it potentially has greater purpose and weight than she can muster. She will have reasons, even if she can't say what they are without causing... er... all this.

So yes, I'm giving her too much credit, but only to readdress the balance vs the mob, who are very much in possession of way too much credit themselves.

(Side note- Im not knocking Vicky overall, she is clearly a highly capable person in other ways - the festival is incredibly successful, and I imagine she is far more successful than most people here, including me... Still, I won't miss the booking of Hatebreed and the like,
urg).
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby north sea storm » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:52 pm

Noodle wrote:It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"
gender choice ? This debate is getting dafter .

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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Czech's Mate » Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:20 pm

north sea storm wrote:
Noodle wrote:It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"
gender choice ? This debate is getting dafter .


Disagree. There is a massive difference between sex and gender

This is a definition if it is helpful "The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave."
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Ghost » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:11 pm

Czech's Mate wrote:
Disagree. There is a massive difference between sex and gender

This is a definition if it is helpful "The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave."


Interesting. So is it possible for a man to just suddenly say they are a female and start using the women's changing room at the gym to have a perv without being arrested? Clearly only doing it in a 1980s cheeky chappies kinda way like from Porky's, Confessions of a Window Cleaner or Brush Strokes. Asking for a friend. :lol:
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby metaldinosaur » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pm

Czech's Mate wrote:
north sea storm wrote:
Noodle wrote:It certainly does no harm whatsoever to respect a human's gender choice. I don't really understand anyone's refusal to do so. "This person identifies as a woman. What do I gain or lose by calling her a man?"
gender choice ? This debate is getting dafter .


Disagree. There is a massive difference between sex and gender

This is a definition if it is helpful "The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave."


Some dictionaries disagree though. However, most of the big name dictionaries have fallen in line with this idea, at least to some degree. One of the problems here is that gender has changed its meaning slightly (for some people at least) in living memory. It causes even more confusion in an already muddled area. Gender was originally interchangeable with sex, only without the more carnal connection. I assume its original use/popularisation was for propriety purposes - Victorian scientists I guess didn'twant to say sex, maybe?

The trans/gender disforia academics should have come up with a new word really, but I presume co-opting an existing one made things seem more organic. Poor decision imo.

I'm starting to feel like I'm giving this too much time now. Urg. It's not really a subject I'm particularly invested in...I just can't stand the mob and its prepackaged, schoolteacher indoctrinated idiocy and bullying. It gets me annoyed. I just wish people would think a bit more and have real empathetic reasoning, not just default to 'helping' the perceived 'victim'.
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Tet » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:20 am

I got burned on Facebook over this, so I'm reluctant to contribute too much. Suffice to say that the situation is not as clear cut as people make it out to be. I have some sympathy for metaldinosaur's views, even if I don't agree with all of them. I'm disappointed (but not entirely surprised) to see many of the same mob mentality responses to their well thought out posts. "You're either with us or against us". Bleurgh. The world isn't that black and white, and it's possible to be supportive of trans rights without going the whole hog and agreeing with some of the more outlandish claims that accompany the movement.
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Re: Vicky's Gone Then

Postby Noodle » Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:05 pm

There's a fair bit to unpick and respond to here, so give me some time to try and do it in a thoughtful way that doesn't scream YOUR WRONG AND U JUST DONT UNDERSTAND
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