Bloodstock Community

bloodofthekings wrote:Whilst Vicky of course doesn't deserve direct abuse or threats (correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen any such content), this is very different to receiving criticism or reading the opinions other people have about her character based on the way she presents herself on social media, which she has quite frankly brought upon herself.

Unless she's received threats, she's not the victim in all of this. For someone who is so prevalent on social media, she is very aware of what that environment is like so tbh, it really comes down to the fact that she shouldn't dish it out if she can't take it.

This isn't the first time she has (unprovoked I might add), chosen to post something that she knows damn well will offend people and cause controversy. And it just comes across like she's being confrontational for the sake of it and trying to start online arguments for no reason, which all seems just a bit juvenile.

And this isn't a freedom of speech issue at all - there was nothing stopping her posting that tweet and there would be nothing stopping her posting it again if she wanted to. But freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the criticism of others when you speak in/on a public form.
When you post on a public form such as social media, then you have to accept that other people will comment, particularly when you are the public face of a brand such as an international music festival. Despite what some people might think, the original aim of social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook is to connect with others and create discourse, not to massage your own fucking ego by convincing yourself that everyone agrees with you. If she didn't want other people to comment, then she should write a blog, not a fucking Twitter post. Or if she only wants comments from people who agree with her then a) social media is not the place for that and b) that's rather sad.

And if you're not as "free" to post whatever you like on social media because you're the face of a brand and your posts could affect the reputation or the business activities of the brand you represent, then boo-fucking-hoo; that comes with the territory and the privileged position that you're in, deal with it.

metaldinosaur wrote:This situation is not a simple one.

I work with a number of people who identify as trans. I refer to them as the they wish to be referred. I do this for mostly empathetic reasons. However, it is very complex situation, and I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing for them or anyone. Am I being kind or am enabling a myriad of negative emotional agents (internal and external) in these people? The answer is, I just don't know, I'm not qualified enough to know for sure. All of them have complex mental health issues and the conflation of this with trans identity is muddy water indeed.

However, I will say this. I understand Vicky and her anger around this issue. The people who are being asked to use the requested pronouns have no control over how they perceive the individual making the request. For me, none of the trans people I work with register as the gender the wish to be referred to as. This means every time I refer to them there is a disconnect between my perception and my vocalisation; ergo, I have to manifest a type of lie. Lying is objectively stressful (e.g. polygraph test) and I have to go through this (very minor) stress multiple times a day; along with the 50 or so other people have contact with. Now this my be a minor discomfort for me and the 50 other people around them; and the emotional hardship trans people feel may be greater on any give metric of suffering; however, the great suffering of an individual vs the very the minor discomfort of many is a very difficult comparison. This is especially true when the trans identity is somewhat difficult to pin down, either in cause or manifestation. Moreover, a lie is a fundamental transgression in pretty much all societies. Society itself was first founded upon truth and trust. Promises kept, form the basis of oaths, which where the first formations of social structures that could be lent upon for stability. Enforcement, either socially or legally of (what feels like) lies is a profound corruption of the perception of truth itself and has a deeply destabilising social impact - people need to know what is true to operate as a reliable social agent, and be a good person. Now the 'trans women are women slogan' has little strength when someone has a biological reaction/recognition regarding gender- hormones don't lie, even if I do, apparently.

The question comes down to: should people who identify as trans be able to force people to lie?

Was this what Vicky getting at in her painfully blunt and inarticulate way? If so, perhaps I agree with her.

Jay1993 wrote:
Just a heads up, it is a requirement at most gender identity clinics (GIC's) for trans individuals to live as their preferred gender for two years before being prescribed hormone therapy. It's known as the "real life experience" and involves legally changing your name and introducing yourself to others with your chosen name/pronouns even though you don't yet "pass" as that gender based on appearance. Hence, the trans individuals you work with may well be early in their transitions and essentially have to state their pronouns to evidence their real life experience to their GIC. As a trans man myself, this was probably the scariest part of my transition and the point where I experienced the most crap off complete strangers, so anything that can be done to help others - such as using preferred pronouns - is much appreciated . There's alot of hoops to jump through (including in-depth psychological evaluation) before hormone therapy is even considered for trans people. It's certainly not as simple as the media makes out!

Not sure what I was trying to achieve with this post, but hope it sheds a bit of light on the importance of pronouns I guess! Either way, I've always felt safe and welcome at Bloodstock, and I know that Vicky's comments do not reflect the festival vibe at all. Peace!

Green Man III wrote:

Jay1993 wrote:
Just a heads up, it is a requirement at most gender identity clinics (GIC's) for trans individuals to live as their preferred gender for two years before being prescribed hormone therapy. It's known as the "real life experience" and involves legally changing your name and introducing yourself to others with your chosen name/pronouns even though you don't yet "pass" as that gender based on appearance. Hence, the trans individuals you work with may well be early in their transitions and essentially have to state their pronouns to evidence their real life experience to their GIC. As a trans man myself, this was probably the scariest part of my transition and the point where I experienced the most crap off complete strangers, so anything that can be done to help others - such as using preferred pronouns - is much appreciated . There's alot of hoops to jump through (including in-depth psychological evaluation) before hormone therapy is even considered for trans people. It's certainly not as simple as the media makes out!

Not sure what I was trying to achieve with this post, but hope it sheds a bit of light on the importance of pronouns I guess! Either way, I've always felt safe and welcome at Bloodstock, and I know that Vicky's comments do not reflect the festival vibe at all. Peace!

You've achieved a lot with this post and thank you for posting. It is always good to get an education on the matter.

With medical science being what it is and the legal system progressing as well, we are all being educated in due course. While there are more people coming out as trans there are more people who are friends with someone who is trans and therefore people who are friends with people who are friends with someone who is trans. And given that I was a teenager in the 80's, I remember a time when 90 % of people would be considered trans-phobic by today's standards so it is something we are all coming to terms with through experience and education.

I have a friend who came out as trans around the same time I was going through a very difficult time in my life and she was really there for me when I needed someone like her who could understand what I was going through. I'm being vague here but I just wanted to add this point because emotionally I'm very happy to see the world evolve socially and politically as it has. But it's been 40 years to get from the 80's to where we are now, and it may well take some more time to get where people want to be.

So in other words, I hope we can all give each other a big hug in the end and have a super fucking amazing Bloodstock next year!

i0th2 wrote:The idea that using someone's preferred pronoun is lying interesting perspective that I'd not considered before and entirely disagree with. For me it's more a lie than using someone's preferred nickname.

north sea storm wrote:Personally I think its a load of old tripe totally blown out of context .
Mamby pambying to the I'm not sure what I am and all this gender neutral bollocks .
Well I've got some news , you are what you are despite what you might pretend you are .
Stop over complicating thing's. BTW Rob Halford is my favourite singer !

i0th2 wrote:Well north sea storm & metaldinosaur, y'all seem weirdly obsessed with strangers' genitals.

Jay1993 wrote:

north sea storm wrote: Not sure what Rob Halford's got to do with it either. Are you trying to prove you're supportive of the LGBT+ community by saying he's your favourite singer? Because you're clearly not.

i0th2 wrote:Well north sea storm & metaldinosaur, y'all seem weirdly obsessed with strangers' genitals.

metaldinosaur wrote:

i0th2 wrote:Well north sea storm & metaldinosaur, y'all seem weirdly obsessed with strangers' genitals.

I'm concerned with being forced to lie. It's a genuine concern.

i0th2 wrote:

metaldinosaur wrote:

i0th2 wrote:Well north sea storm & metaldinosaur, y'all seem weirdly obsessed with strangers' genitals.

I'm concerned with being forced to lie. It's a genuine concern.

It's not a lie if you don't know the truth so unless you've carried out some sort of intimate inspection of all your acquaintances then all you're basing this lie on is an assumption you've made.

north sea storm wrote:Personally I think its a load of old tripe totally blown out of context .
Mamby pambying to the I'm not sure what I am and all this gender neutral bollocks .
Well I've got some news , you are what you are despite what you might pretend you are .
Stop over complicating thing's. BTW Rob Halford is my favourite singer !